Originally Posted by :
A search and rescue operation is currently underway to locate a submarine that went missing during an expedition to the Titanic.
The U.S. Coast Guard was looking for the submarine Monday morning after it disappeared during the expedition from St. John's, N.L. The infamous 1912 wreck is located more than 600 kilometres southeast of the province in the North Atlantic Ocean.
The trip to the Titanic was being run by OceanGate Expeditions, a U.S.-based company. It uses a five-person submersible named Titan to reach the wreckage 3,800 metres below the surface. OceanGate's website advertises a seven-night voyage to the Titanic for US$250,000 per person, or approximately CA$330,000.
"We are exploring and mobilizing all options to bring the crew back safely," an OceanGate spokesperson said in an email to CTV News. "Our entire focus is on the crewmembers in the submersible and their families."
Those tours are a series of five eight-day missions to the Titanic with the money raised by tourists going towards Titanic research. Posts on social media show the ship launched from the St. John's area last week.
Did they really have 5 people in this?? Or do they have a larger version??
Originally Posted by DaFace:
Are you sure that they couldn't just plug it in if needed? To be fair, I haven't dug THAT far into it, but that's a pretty easy system to build in some backups, so I'd be VERY surprised if that were the case.
I haven't dug into it at all but I don't think wireless controllers come with a plug in back up although I'm sure they can be customized. Also, why take the chance of it getting lost just like the TV remote or have to switch over to wired in an emergency?
Wireless just seems like an unnecessary convenience in such a high steaks environment.
Originally Posted by DaFace:
Are you sure that they couldn't just plug it in if needed? To be fair, I haven't dug THAT far into it, but that's a pretty easy system to build in some backups, so I'd be VERY surprised if that were the case.
The point being that a Logitech controller is just another sign of cost cutting and usage of low grade parts/materials.
People calling it an "Xbox" controller are literally making an overstatement. It's not even that.
As ive said before, i wouldn't even buy a Logitech pad for my home gaming PC. I'd buy....an actual Xbox controller. Everyone who's had a console....since dating back to childhood, knows that aftermarket controllers pale in quality and longevity to their O.E counterparts.
The fact that they couldn't even do THAT suggests that there's going to be corners cut that you didn't see. Ones that could potentially cost you your life. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
The point being that a Logitech controller is just another sign of cost cutting and usage of low grade parts/materials.
People calling it an "Xbox" controller are literally making an overstatement. It's not even that.
As ive said before, i wouldn't even buy a Logitech pad for my home gaming PC. I'd buy....an actual Xbox controller. Everyone who's had a console....since dating back to childhood, knows that aftermarket controllers pale in quality and longevity to their O.E counterparts.
The fact that they couldn't even do THAT suggests that there's going to be corners cut that you didn't see. Ones that could potentially cost you your life.
Sure, but that's still making a lot of assumptions about what redundant systems they have in place. If they're using the controller mainly so that the pilot could sit at the end and let the passengers sit near the porthole but they could otherwise use a physical keyboard connected to the computer in a pinch, I have zero issue with that.
Again, making a vessel that could withstand those pressures AT ALL isn't a trivial exercise - these guys weren't idiots. I find it REALLY hard to believe that there was any actual safety risk from the controller at all. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Assumes a whole BUNCH of facts not in evidence....
I mean, the Santa Maria was significantly larger and more durable than the other two ships. Carrack's existed then - they were huge, powerful and durable, but they were slow. So Columbus went with the smaller, faster and yes - cheaper option with Caravel's. And he didn't even use 3 substantial ones - he used the biggest/best as his flagship and cut corners on the other 2. Why do you think they did that if it wasn't a profit motive?
Moreover, he wasn't far removed from the era of the Spanish Galleon, which was in development but not commonly used at the time. He COULD'VE gone with the Cameron approach and sought resources to fully develop the Galleon but he didn't. Instead he pushed existing technology to limits that NOBODY knew if it could withstand, similar to OG with Carbon Fiber tech.
And a bunch of folks were telling Columbus that the whole undertaking was a suicide mission. Did he take civilians? No - but he had a bunch of volunteer sailors with him and do you doubt for a second that the motives of many of them were simple adventure? Those guys could've found a boat that didn't take them into uncharted waters towards a world that they knew nothing about. That's not what they chose and it was more than a paycheck that drove some of them.
It's awfully similar in a lot of ways. I mean NOTHING presents a perfect analogue, but c'mon - how many similarities do you need before you recognize the theme? This is what explorers do. It's what they've ALWAYS done. And it gets a whole bunch of 'em dead for their efforts.
Yeah, you have a lot more context than I have around Columbus and those crews. I do see some of the similarities you're calling out, but I'm not getting the impression that OceanGate dude's main goal was all that grandiose. If you really wanted to pioneer new material for deep sea exploration, he wouldn't have been purchasing discounted, past-its-shelf-date carbon fiber. He would have done a lot more testing, modeling and certification to show its safety and durability instead of ignoring other experts in the field. And he wouldn't have had a single person besides himself inside that tin can until he had the data to back it up. There's a reason it's frowned upon to test in production. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Assumes a whole BUNCH of facts not in evidence....
I mean, the Santa Maria was significantly larger and more durable than the other two ships. Carrack's existed then - they were huge, powerful and durable, but they were slow.
The Santa Maria was a Carrack. In fact... the Santa Maria was also the first ship lost (Dec 25, La Navidad Haiti) because it couldn't handle shallows like the Caravel's.
Originally Posted by :
So Columbus went with the smaller, faster and yes - cheaper option with Caravel's. And he didn't even use 3 substantial ones - he used the biggest/best as his flagship and cut corners on the other 2. Why do you think they did that if it wasn't a profit motive?
The other two (Niña & Pinta) were chosen (and he wrote about it) primarily because it was the class of ship he was most familiar with and because they were perfect for navigating in unknown waters due to its speed and ability to cross shallow water.
He picked those two because the Catholic Monarchs provided any ship he wanted in their fleet. He specifically only chose the single carack because he needed a larger ship to haul supplies and crew on a long voyage.
The last reason he gave was due to overall cost to outfit and crew the larger ships. Not profit... expense. What his reward would be upon completion was not dependent on how much he spent AFAIK.
Originally Posted by :
Moreover, he wasn't far removed from the era of the Spanish Galleon, which was in development but not commonly used at the time. He COULD'VE gone with the Cameron approach and sought resources to fully develop the Galleon but he didn't. Instead he pushed existing technology to limits that NOBODY knew if it could withstand, similar to OG with Carbon Fiber tech.
Incorrect. He was given a choice of ships from an existing fleet. The first Spanish Galleon wasn't launched until long (even 10 years is a long time) after Columbus departed (exact date of first launch unknown but believed to be in the early 1600s).
Originally Posted by :
And a bunch of folks were telling Columbus that the whole undertaking was a suicide mission. Did he take civilians? No - but he had a bunch of volunteer sailors with him and do you doubt for a second that the motives of many of them were simple adventure? Those guys could've found a boat that didn't take them into uncharted waters towards a world that they knew nothing about. That's not what they chose and it was more than a paycheck that drove some of them.
The fuck he didn't take civilians with him. It was common practice during that time to offer prisoners a chance at rehabilitation through participation in exploratory expeditions. They made up part of his crew.
Not only that but he then put a shit ton of civilians on the ship and sent them back to Europe despite having already lost the biggest of his ships.
Originally Posted by :
It's awfully similar in a lot of ways. I mean NOTHING presents a perfect analogue, but c'mon - how many similarities do you need before you recognize the theme? This is what explorers do. It's what they've ALWAYS done. And it gets a whole bunch of 'em dead for their efforts.
The only similarities they hold is that people got on a body of water and went somewhere (granted... the people in the sub basically went EVERYWHERE under water). Columbus wasn't charging the crew of his ships, the period equivalent of, $250,000 in order to join the expedition. Hell, even if he had he would have at the very least been taking them to see something no one had ever seen before (what the future slaves and recipients of murder saw didn't count because they were clearly sub-human savages).
Oh... and that they were both gigantic assholes of the first order. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Assumes a whole BUNCH of facts not in evidence....
I mean, the Santa Maria was significantly larger and more durable than the other two ships. Carrack's existed then - they were huge, powerful and durable, but they were slow. So Columbus went with the smaller, faster and yes - cheaper option with Caravel's. And he didn't even use 3 substantial ones - he used the biggest/best as his flagship and cut corners on the other 2. Why do you think they did that if it wasn't a profit motive?
Moreover, he wasn't far removed from the era of the Spanish Galleon, which was in development but not commonly used at the time. He COULD'VE gone with the Cameron approach and sought resources to fully develop the Galleon but he didn't. Instead he pushed existing technology to limits that NOBODY knew if it could withstand, similar to OG with Carbon Fiber tech.
And a bunch of folks were telling Columbus that the whole undertaking was a suicide mission. Did he take civilians? No - but he had a bunch of volunteer sailors with him and do you doubt for a second that the motives of many of them were simple adventure? Those guys could've found a boat that didn't take them into uncharted waters towards a world that they knew nothing about. That's not what they chose and it was more than a paycheck that drove some of them.
It's awfully similar in a lot of ways. I mean NOTHING presents a perfect analogue, but c'mon - how many similarities do you need before you recognize the theme? This is what explorers do. It's what they've ALWAYS done. And it gets a whole bunch of 'em dead for their efforts.
Columbus was essentially a beggar at this point as he had been turned down numerous times before. I don’t think he exactly got to make demands but even if he did he had pitched it as a somewhat short voyage so what he got would have been appropriate for his line of thinking. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mephistopheles Janx:
The Santa Maria was a Carrack. In fact... the Santa Maria was also the first ship lost (Dec 25, La Navidad Haiti) because it couldn't handle shallows like the Caravel's.
Oh... and that they were both gigantic assholes of the first order.
Lots of good stuff in there; hard to respond to it.
Didn't know the SM was a Carrack. That said, it was a bigger, more expensive ship and Columbus's flagship. They knew it to be the more durable of the options available. That it eventually ran aground isn't the point when discussing planning - they were planning trans-atlantic voyage - the ability to handle seas is what they were concerned with and ultimately that's why it was CC's flagship. Shallow seas when you're discussing that sort of journey is a secondary concern, no?
Separating expense from profit motive when he was reaching out to investors to fund his little adventure seems...irregular. They seem hand in hand to me.
I believe the Galleons were early1500s (16th century) - though fair point regarding timelines back then. 10 years was an eternity. He got to 'yes' and took the win. Can't really fault him for that one.
As for the OG crew charging people - I honestly don't care. That's asswipe money for a billionaire. I mean if you're worth $1.5 billion, a $250,000 expense is the equivalent of about $175 for someone worth a million bucks. The cost is just wholly irrelevant to me - it was certainly not a consideration for the people that took the trip.
And yeah - they well could have been gigantic assholes. Guess what? Most people who achieve historic status are. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Lots of good stuff in there; hard to respond to it.
Didn't know the SM was a Carrack. That said, it was a bigger, more expensive ship and Columbus's flagship. They knew it to be the more durable of the options available. That it eventually ran aground isn't the point when discussing planning - they were planning trans-atlantic voyage - the ability to handle seas is what they were concerned with and ultimately that's why it was CC's flagship.
They knew that the Caravels were plenty sturdy to handle deep ocean exploration as that was the ship of choice for Spanish explorers of that era. Seeing as he could have taken 3 carracks with him but, seemingly, chose to use the SM as a support vehicle for the other two.
As for it being the flagship... symbols of authority are everything to people like Columbus. It is basically the equivalent of a North Korean military officer...
Gotta let people know you have a dick that swings.
Originally Posted by :
Shallow seas when you're discussing that sort of journey is a secondary concern, no?
Perhaps but one has to take into account what the purpose of his trip was. The SM was the perfect vehicle to take on a trans-atlantic cruise but once they got to land... they would need ships that were able to navigate shallow waters or run the risk of beaching that beast like they did in Haiti.
Originally Posted by :
Separating expense from profit motive when he was reaching out to investors to fund his little adventure seems...irregular. They seem hand in hand to me.
The agreement between the Queen and Columbus wasn't one like an individual who is having a house built with a contractor. She didn't hand him a random number of dollars and his pay would be based on how much he could actually do the job for. The payoff would be a new route for trading spices with India/Asia that would net them ridiculous insurmountable wealth.
Instead, they found the "new world" then raped the living fuck out of the people and the land by stealing thousands of tons of gold. Everyone in that particular court got hella paid.
Originally Posted by :
I believe the Galleons were early1500s (16th century) - though fair point regarding timelines back then. 10 years was an eternity. He got to 'yes' and took the win. Can't really fault him for that one.
Originally Posted by :
As for the OG crew charging people - I honestly don't care. That's asswipe money for a billionaire. I mean if you're worth $1.5 billion, a $250,000 expense is the equivalent of about $175 for someone worth a million bucks. The cost is just wholly irrelevant to me - it was certainly not a consideration for the people that took the trip.
While true... the reason I brought it up is this asshat's name is being discussed in the same circles as Columbus and their "similarities". Columbus didn't lie about the world known businesses that were associated with the design and building of his ships. Columbus didn't have people paying him to take a cruise in an experimental craft. Hell... Columbus didn't even realize where the fuck he was going.
I fail to find a single similarity between those two.
Originally Posted by :
And yeah - they well could have been gigantic assholes. Guess what? Most people who achieve historic status are.
Sure... but *MOST* of those assholes didn't take a bunch of people down with them in the process of being a world class asshole. [Reply]
Originally Posted by ReynardMuldrake:
Then they refused to have it certified for that depth because it was too expensive. And they took tourists two miles deep in the ocean. Repeatedly.
This wasn't a scientific endeavor. This was a for-profit business. The failure to properly certify the craft is inexcusable.
Yeah there really is no excuse for it
If you can't or won't find a way to properly test it and have it certified, then you shouldn't be allowed to solicit gullible adventure tourists... and you certainly don't create this thing from "past its due date" carbon fiber [Reply]
Maybe we should quit visiting the Titanic. You can YouTube about a 100 documentaries on it and see the wreckage. It’s a graveyard so leave it in peace. If a guy like Cameron wants to put himself at risk and not put anyone else at danger that’s one thing. But unmanned submersibles are probably the logical way to explore the deep ocean. [Reply]
Please tell me that those North Korean uniforms are real. Up to now, my favorite part of their uniforms has been the giant hats that make them all look like they're five year-olds.
