Alright Planeteers, I've been arguing on message boards with people about this off and on for a couple years now and I want to get CP's input on it. The question is this: Who would win in a fight between Bruce Lee and Mike Tyson in his prime? Let's hear it! [Reply]
Originally Posted by rico:
Haha, you remember that? I thought about that for a few days and hoped it would blow over and thought it did. I'll have to go back to that one because I was walking around with a little notepad taking notes on what to write about that one... It'll be a tl;dr type of deal.
I'll read it. That thread still makes me laugh, especially when I see people in this thread talking up Bruce Lee the same way they talked up Ronda Rousey's magical armbar.
Boxers are mindless oafs, but 'martial artists' are ninja wizards. [Reply]
Originally Posted by rabblerouser:
Lee would rip Tyson's eyes out of his fat ****ing head.
I promise.
Lee was an actor because he got paid.
Tyson would be an actor, but he's too stupid. So instead they have 'Mike Tyson's Mysteries' on CN. Funny shit. But Tyson would still get his asss kicked.
Tyson is in the new Ip man 3. Reviews so far said he did a nice job even though he has the voice of a 10 year old girl with a cold. He even speaks Cantonese in the film. The fight seen between him and Ip man would probably be the closest we will ever see to something with Lee - since Ip Man was considered one of the best of his era and trained Lee.
Of course Lee went on to train with lots of Masters in all kinds of self defense techniques-including boxing, fencing and used that to develop his own art form. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Halfcan:
Tyson is in the new Ip man 3. Reviews so far said he did a nice job even though he has the voice of a 10 year old girl with a cold. He even speaks Cantonese in the film. The fight seen between him and Ip man would probably be the closest we will ever see to something with Lee - since Ip Man was considered one of the best of his era and trained Lee.
Of course Lee went on to train with lots of Masters in all kinds of self defense techniques-including boxing, fencing and used that to develop his own art form.
I've already said I think Tyson would win a boxing match, but that is his area of expertise. It's too easy to dismiss Lee's fighting ability because he was also an actor that didn't fight anyone professionally. He never even wanted to get into the fight game, but he did fight some skilled fighters. Here's an eyewitness account of a boxing match with an amateur boxing champ while they were both in high school (a boxer named Gary Elms):
This is from a classmate of Gary Elms'(Rolf Clausnitzer)
Originally Posted by :
His bout with Bruce turned out to be the most amazing and bizarre boxing match I have ever seen and expect to see. I honestly believe that Gary did not land even one single scoring punch throughout the entire 3 x 1 minute rounds, with Bruce deflecting and taking all of Gary's punches on his arms. Gary was knocked down several times, but he was not knocked out (contrary to what has been reported in various articles and books!) and, even more surprisingly, he did not appear to be hurt or distressed. Each time he was floored, he would immediately jump back up. That's why the referee did not stop the fight. Notwithstanding Gary's extraordinary toughness, I was amazed to see him survive the bout in such good shape. It was not until later when I caught up with Frank that some sort of explanation emerged.
Apparently, when Frank and his friends went to congratulate Bruce after the bout, Bruce was shaking his head and looking far from pleased with himself. His reply to Frank's obvious question was something along the lines of, "Damn it, I couldn't knock the guy out". His rationalization was that the large (16oz?) gloves neutralized the intended, penetrating effect of tilting the wrist on impact, a practice common to many Wing Chun practitioners (I gather he abandoned this practice in later years). He reckoned that this force was not penetrating the padding and, in any case, Gary was already being propelled backwards from the pushing impact of the glove. He swore that he would continue training until he could achieve the penetration he wanted. He also had his sights set on Peter Burton, a stylish and hard punching boxer from St George's School (which was exclusively for the children of British Armed Forces personnel in Hong Kong), a much bigger and heavier competitor who had TKO'd his opponent in the second round. By the way, Frank and I met Peter (who turned out to be half German as well) at a party a few weeks later and we talked about Bruce, but it's unlikely that such a bout would ever have been approved because of the weight and size differences and, in any case, Bruce left for the USA a few months later to begin a new chapter in his amazing life.
The Frank they're referring to is Rolf's brother.
More on the Elms fight:
Originally Posted by :
Defeated British boxer Gary Elms by knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong amateur boxing championships by using Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches. Before he met Elms in the finals, he knocked out three boxers in the first round. Hawkings Cheung, his fellow Wing Chun street fighter, witnessed the event.
Here are some accounts of other fights:
Originally Posted by :
Lee knocked out Wong Jack-Man in Oakland, CA, in a 1965 no-holds-barred challenge match. It was Lee's last official fight. It lasted three minutes.
Originally Posted by :
Lee knocked-out Chung, a Choy Li Fut fighter, in Hong Kong in a 1958 Full-Contact match. The match was refereed by Sheun-Leung Wong.
Originally Posted by :
Lee knocked out Uechi in 10 seconds in a 1962 Full-Contact match in Seattle. It was refereed by Jesse Glover.
IMHO, Tyson would win in boxing. In a wrestling match, I think Tyson would also win. In a MMA style fight, Lee wins. I think Lee also wins a no-holds-barred death match.
Ring: Tyson
Mat: Tyson
Octagon: Lee
Cage: Lee
Pretty much a push for me.
I think the MMA match would kinda look like the latest Dillashaw/Cruz tilt, with Lee playing the part of the hard to hit Cruz. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Halfcan: :-) Here is a nice synopsis on the Baddest man on the Planet.
Where does Mike Tyson rank among the all-time greats?
There’s no question that for a brief time in the late 1980s Tyson was truly awesome -- as feared and dominating as any fighter who ever lived. But true greatness also requires longevity and wins over quality opponents and in these two categories Tyson is sorely lacking. Tyson’s prime really only lasted from his 1985 debut through the end 1989 -- just prior to being KO’d by Buster Douglas. During this time Tyson was an amazing 37-0 and became the youngest heavyweight champ in history. But his greatest victories were KOs against a flabby, over the hill ex-champ in Larry Holmes and a scared, blown-up light heavyweight in Michael Spinks. Tyson’s other "big wins" were over Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs and Frank Bruno. Hardly the stuff of legends.
Using the Douglas loss as the turning point, Tyson is an extremely ordinary 12-4 with 2 no contests over the second part of his career. Against the great fighters of his era - Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Buster Douglas - Tyson was 0-4 (OK, I’m using the term ‘great’ very loosely here in order to make a point) and he never even faced Riddick Bowe, George Foreman, Ray Mercer or Michael Moorer. Given the stunningly short duration of Tyson’s meteoric rise and fall, along with his lack of truly significant wins, it’s impossible to rank Tyson among the top ten heavyweights of all-time. In one of the greatest cases of squandered talent in the history of sports, Tyson’s spot in the pantheon of greats belongs somewhere between numbers 11 and 20 -- right next to his twin from an earlier era, Charles "Sonny" Liston. Only time will tell if Tyson’s life continues to parallel the tragic arc or Liston’s or if he can somehow redeem himself and avoid a similarly early and mysterious demise
You continue to conflate Tyson's career with Tyson's talent.
Moreover, it's just absurdly disingenuous to compare Tyson before prison to Tyson after. The guy that lost to Lewis and Holyfield was a shell of himself.
Nobody - absolutely nobody - will ever argue that Tyson had one of the greatest careers in boxing. He didn't - he wasted an incredible amount of talent and really stopped developing by the time he was about 21-22 yrs old. But even by then, he'd become an absolute force. Yeah, the 80s were a shit time for heavyweight fighting, but Tyson's skills during that era were simply inarguable.
He wasn't some slug like Listo keeps trying to argue and yes, Tyson in his prime absolutely would've crushed Marciano - who fought in an era where defense didn't matter and picked on guys who were part-time fighters, Ali - a gimmicky fighter who couldn't have stood up to Tyson's power and who couldn't have just outlasted him like he did an out of shape Foreman. Foreman was the lumbering oaf you're trying to paint Tyson as who probably couldn't have even gotten a glove on him (though I think Foreman's probably the hardest puncher we've seen). Maybe Foreman could've baited an older Tyson into a slugfest, but a 21 yr old Tyson would've just toyed with him.
Prime Frazier, OTOH, I think would've given him a damn tough fight. They say styles make fights and Frazier's absolutely a guy that could've given Tyson some trouble. He was very similar to Tyson in how he moved and would look for those windows to nail you with a hook. Frazier wasn't the athlete Ali was but he was more technically sound and more powerful. Ali had the better career than Frazier, but I think Frazier is the tougher matchup for Tyson. [Reply]
YES THIS IS A MOVIE FIGHT-probably one of the best ever recorded for a movie at that time. This shows each fighters techniques in regular speed and a slow motion view-which highlights Lee's footwork. It shows many points brought up on here-Lee taking several hard strikes, Lee's speed, and breaking Norris's arm and knee-then finally a classic MMA move to end the fight. Norris is no Tyson!!!!! Yes but in his day- was a Champion and a well respected fighter.
Norris was defeated in his first two tournaments, dropping decisions to Joe Lewis and Allen Steen and three matches at the International Karate Championships to Tony Tulleners. By 1967 Norris had improved enough that he scored victories over the likes of Lewis, Skipper Mullins, Arnold Urquidez, Victor Moore, Ron Marchini, and Steve Sanders. Norris would be a two time winner at S. Henry Cho's All American Championship.[14] In early 1968, Norris suffered the tenth and last loss of his career, losing an upset decision to Louis Delgado. On November 24, 1968, he avenged his defeat to Delgado and by doing so won the Professional Middleweight Karate champion title, which he held for six consecutive years.[9] In 1969, he won Karate's triple crown for the most tournament wins of the year, and the Fighter of the Year award by Black Belt magazine.
Norris made history in 1990 when he was the first Westerner in the documented history of Tae Kwon Do to be given the rank of 8th Degree Black Belt Grand Master.[15] In 1999, Norris was inducted into the Martial Arts History Museum's Hall of Fame. On July 1, 2000, Norris was presented the Golden Lifetime Achievement Award by the World Karate Union Hall of Fame
Lee vs Kareem - Game of Death
THIS IS A MOVIE Fight- it shows how Lee overcomes a massive size disadvantage. Kareem was one of the greatest athletes of his generation and all time NBA point leader. Lee trained him. In the fight Lee-once again uses knee strikes, foot stomps, kicks in the groin and finishes the fight with a MMA choke out. Classic David vs Goliath fight.
THIS IS A MOVIE FIGHT- Lee shows his speed against a strong striker and Champion. Lee shows off his amazing punching speed, elbow strike, power kicks to the head, groin kick, huge power kick to send Wall flying and finishes with a double foot stomp.
Robert Alan "Bob" Wall is an American actor and martial artist. Wall is a former karate champion. Among the martial arts Bob Wall has studied Okinawa-te karate under Gordon Doversola. In 1966, Wall along with karate champion Joe Lewis opened the famous Sherman Oaks Karate Studio in Sherman Oaks, California. In 1968 Lewis sold his share
Yes these are all movie fights- but it does show Lee's arsenal of kill shots. Speed, power, MMA finish moves, and bone breaking strikes to take fighters out quickly.
Here is some rare footage to show it was not all Movie Magic,
Look at the heavy bag about to break off the chain- that is amazing power. The power in his one-inch punch. The speed and footwork. Look at him destroying some guy wearing a black belt in a live fight / tournament. Wins easily. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
You continue to conflate Tyson's career with Tyson's talent.
Moreover, it's just absurdly disingenuous to compare Tyson before prison to Tyson after. The guy that lost to Lewis and Holyfield was a shell of himself.
Nobody - absolutely nobody - will ever argue that Tyson had one of the greatest careers in boxing. He didn't - he wasted an incredible amount of talent and really stopped developing by the time he was about 21-22 yrs old. But even by then, he'd become an absolute force. Yeah, the 80s were a shit time for heavyweight fighting, but Tyson's skills during that era were simply inarguable.
He wasn't some slug like Listo keeps trying to argue and yes, Tyson in his prime absolutely would've crushed Marciano - who fought in an era where defense didn't matter and picked on guys who were part-time fighters, Ali - a gimmicky fighter who couldn't have stood up to Tyson's power and who couldn't have just outlasted him like he did an out of shape Foreman. Foreman was the lumbering oaf you're trying to paint Tyson as who probably couldn't have even gotten a glove on him (though I think Foreman's probably the hardest puncher we've seen). Maybe Foreman could've baited an older Tyson into a slugfest, but a 21 yr old Tyson would've just toyed with him.
Prime Frazier, OTOH, I think would've given him a damn tough fight. They say styles make fights and Frazier's absolutely a guy that could've given Tyson some trouble. He was very similar to Tyson in how he moved and would look for those windows to nail you with a hook. Frazier wasn't the athlete Ali was but he was more technically sound and more powerful. Ali had the better career than Frazier, but I think Frazier is the tougher matchup for Tyson.
That was a synopsis from a boxing site from a so-called expert. I think it brings up a lot of good points in the kind of competition that Tyson went up against. Yes I agree-he lost a lot of prime years in prison. He could have cleaned out all of the good fighters in the division and maybe even beat Holyfield and Lewis. A fight between a Tyson in his absolute prime and Lewis would have been amazing. Lewis had a huge size advantage. Similar to what Tyson would have over Lee. I would have loved to see Tommy Morrison-who had similar power -fight Tyson. Morrison was another one that squandered his talent. Tyson vs Mercer-who was probably one of the hardest punchers around and Gold medal winner (over Tyson) would have been a bruising bash fest.
I also have to question what role Don King had in the bums he set up for Tyson. Some of these guys dropped like a loaf of bread with the first jab and even though they did not look hurt, had zero intention of standing up. Was it because of Tyson fierce style and image or were they paid off-which was a narrative that followed Don King throughout his career. Without those classic fights and wins against the Best in the division-you can't consider Tyson one of the greatest of all time-and that is the point this guy is making. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Saul Good:
Movie clips! I love this place!
Yes and it is stated MOVIE FIGHTS. Unfortunately these and the rare footage are all we have to judge by. I am sure all the personal testimony from his students and world champions he trained with-won't matter to you guys- so I didn't include them.
You still think Lee was some kind of karate-chop actor and nothing will ever change that. :-) [Reply]
Originally Posted by Halfcan:
That was a synopsis from a boxing site from a so-called expert. I think it brings up a lot of good points in the kind of competition that Tyson went up against. Yes I agree-he lost a lot of prime years in prison. He could have cleaned out all of the good fighters in the division and maybe even beat Holyfield and Lewis. A fight between a Tyson in his absolute prime and Lewis would have been amazing. Lewis had a huge size advantage. Similar to what Tyson would have over Lee. I would have loved to see Tommy Morrison-who had similar power -fight Tyson. Morrison was another one that squandered his talent. Tyson vs Mercer-who was probably one of the hardest punchers around and Gold medal winner (over Tyson) would have been a bruising bash fest.
I also have to question what role Don King had in the bums he set up for Tyson. Some of these guys dropped like a loaf of bread with the first jab and even though they did not look hurt, had zero intention of standing up. Was it because of Tyson fierce style and image or were they paid off-which was a narrative that followed Don King throughout his career. Without those classic fights and wins against the Best in the division-you can't consider Tyson one of the greatest of all time-and that is the point this guy is making.
I can't argue that Tyson had one of the best careers of all time - he very clearly didn't.
But man, what I wouldn't give to drop an 19 yr old Mike Tyson into 1965 and see what happens. It wouldn't just be Ali and Frazier, but Foreman, Holmes in his prime, Ken Norton and even a guy like Quarry would've been an entertaining fight. For 15 years you'd could've had a different headline fight every single year.
As for Lewis - he had a reach advantage on Tyson, to be sure, but Tyson was the heavier, stronger, more compact fighter. Remember that Tyson was operating at about 210-215 lbs at 5'10'' in his prime. For perspective, that's about the same weight Foreman and Ali carried when both men were about 5 inches taller; that's some seriously powerful, compact mass. Beyond that, Tyson's power and quickness in tight spaces allowed him to even use his shorter stature to his advantage. He'd get inside on those longer fighters and take the action to them. That's why I don't think he'd struggle with Ali as much as he would with Frazier. I think he could use Ali's length against him.
It again gets back to a fundamental frustration I have in these discussions - this argument that Tyson was some fire-breathing idiot in the ring. He wasn't; Tyson had a plan and he was as calculating and savvy a technical fighter as there was during his era. The problem was that the further away he got from his training with D'Amato and the more King influenced him, the less of a boxer he became and he turned into the puncher that people will now diminish.
That's not who prime Tyson was. And while I agree with the top 10 lists that won't give him credit for what he could've been had he been in a different era and/or maintained his edge longer, it doesn't take away from the greatness that he possessed in his prime. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Halfcan:
Yes and it is stated MOVIE FIGHTS. Unfortunately these and the rare footage are all we have to judge by. I am sure all the personal testimony from his students and world champions he trained with-won't matter to you guys- so I didn't include them.
You still think Lee was some kind of karate-chop actor and nothing will ever change that. :-)
He was a martial artist. He was inventive. He was intelligent. I have no doubt he was probably tenacious and tough. He also happened to be a 135 lb man. Simple physics should tell you all you need to know. [Reply]
Originally Posted by redhed:
I've already said I think Tyson would win a boxing match, but that is his area of expertise. It's too easy to dismiss Lee's fighting ability because he was also an actor that didn't fight anyone professionally. He never even wanted to get into the fight game, but he did fight some skilled fighters. Here's an eyewitness account of a boxing match with an amateur boxing champ while they were both in high school (a boxer named Gary Elms):
This is from a classmate of Gary Elms'(Rolf Clausnitzer) The Frank they're referring to is Rolf's brother.
More on the Elms fight:
Here are some accounts of other fights:
IMHO, Tyson would win in boxing. In a wrestling match, I think Tyson would also win. In a MMA style fight, Lee wins. I think Lee also wins a no-holds-barred death match.
Ring: Tyson
Mat: Tyson
Octagon: Lee
Cage: Lee
Pretty much a push for me.
I think the MMA match would kinda look like the latest Dillashaw/Cruz tilt, with Lee playing the part of the hard to hit Cruz.
When I was 10 years old or so, I got into a fight with a neighborhood kid. The fight happened within view of some neighboring adults. The fight was pretty even, until the end when I landed a hail Mary shot to the eye that popped the other kids blood vessel in his eye. He hit the ground screaming and crying. Still, it was a pretty even fight that sent both of us to the hospital to have some stuff checked out. However, those adult neighbors that watched will still tell you to this day, that I bobbed and weaved on that kid, picked him apart in the stand up, and then jumped on him for some ground and pound, and left the fight without a scratch.
Point being, people exaggerate. That's how a lot of the Bruce Lee mystique has been built. There are no actual records or videos of a Bruce Lee fight, are there?
There is video proof of actual Tyson fights, where he displays strength, scary speed for his size, and technical fighting ability. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I can't argue that Tyson had one of the best careers of all time - he very clearly didn't.
But man, what I wouldn't give to drop an 19 yr old Mike Tyson into 1965 and see what happens. It wouldn't just be Ali and Frazier, but Foreman, Holmes in his prime, Ken Norton and even a guy like Quarry would've been an entertaining fight. For 15 years you'd could've had a different headline fight every single year.
As for Lewis - he had a reach advantage on Tyson, to be sure, but Tyson was the heavier, stronger, more compact fighter. Remember that Tyson was operating at about 210-215 lbs at 5'10'' in his prime. For perspective, that's about the same weight Foreman and Ali carried when both men were about 5 inches taller; that's some seriously powerful, compact mass. Beyond that, Tyson's power and quickness in tight spaces allowed him to even use his shorter stature to his advantage. He'd get inside on those longer fighters and take the action to them. That's why I don't think he'd struggle with Ali as much as he would with Frazier. I think he could use Ali's length against him.
It again gets back to a fundamental frustration I have in these discussions - this argument that Tyson was some fire-breathing idiot in the ring. He wasn't; Tyson had a plan and he was as calculating and savvy a technical fighter as there was during his era. The problem was that the further away he got from his training with D'Amato and the more King influenced him, the less of a boxer he became and he turned into the puncher that people will now diminish.
That's not who prime Tyson was. And while I agree with the top 10 lists that won't give him credit for what he could've been had he been in a different era and/or maintained his edge longer, it doesn't take away from the greatness that he possessed in his prime.
Excellent post. I agree-I think Tyson would fare much better in that generation than this one. Here is a discussion on Mike Tyson vs Klitschko brothers?
Originally Posted by Halfcan:
Excellent post. I agree-I think Tyson would fare much better in that generation than this one. Here is a discussion on Mike Tyson vs Klitschko brothers?
Yeah, I'm still convinced that the Klitschko's are nuclear experiments gone awry.
Credit to Tyson - the dude's become remarkably self-aware with time. It only makes me that much more pissed off at what King did to him during the late 80s. In the rare moments you get him actually talking about boxing, you see just how smart he was in that arena.
I think he's right - the Klitschko's are just such a rare combination of length and power that I don't even think Tyson could've done much with them. The best chance he would've had would've been psychological. Prime Tyson still scared the shit out of people and if Tyson would've come out with that charging, aggressive style and got the brothers going backwards at all, he could've beat 'em.
But I don't think Vitali would be nervous boxing a rhinoceros. Wlad? Eh, maybe. Maybe on the right day. [Reply]
