Originally Posted by Chargem:
Interesting post, I agree and I don't.
I do agree with you that strength is a better goal for most than mass/physique, but then I actually really respect Jeff Nippard, he is a bodybuilder but he also values strength etc infinitely more than the average youtube fitness bodybuilder type, he has strength specific programs and has been a powerlifter.
I also don't find the 30lbs of muscle claim that crazy, and he probably did most of that with strength training rather than bodybuilding. It may also be worth noting that both of Jeff's parents were competitive bodybuilders so its actually more his access to knowledge that gave him a headstart over the average gym newbie.
I got into the gym initially via discovering Starting Strength and 5x5, and people add a ridiculous amount of muscle in the first year or so with those programs all the time. Those that don't, assuming they actually follow the workout plan, either they start overweight and have no idea the ratio of fat loss to muscle gain when they succeed, or those who start out skinny generally don't eat enough to max out their potential gains and hit the kind of gains Jeff did.
Mass comes from hypertrophy training (bodybuilding) not from strength training. This is why the first block in a powerlifting or strongman program is a lot of hypertrohpy. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chargem:
Interesting post, I agree and I don't.
I do agree with you that strength is a better goal for most than mass/physique, but then I actually really respect Jeff Nippard, he is a bodybuilder but he also values strength etc infinitely more than the average youtube fitness bodybuilder type, he has strength specific programs and has been a powerlifter.
I also don't find the 30lbs of muscle claim that crazy, and he probably did most of that with strength training rather than bodybuilding. It may also be worth noting that both of Jeff's parents were competitive bodybuilders so its actually more his access to knowledge that gave him a headstart over the average gym newbie.
I got into the gym initially via discovering Starting Strength and 5x5, and people add a ridiculous amount of muscle in the first year or so with those programs all the time. Those that don't, assuming they actually follow the workout plan, either they start overweight and have no idea the ratio of fat loss to muscle gain when they succeed, or those who start out skinny generally don't eat enough to max out their potential gains and hit the kind of gains Jeff did.
Yes I did 5x5 training back when I weight trained. Would highly recommend for a hard gainer. It was the absolute best for me at putting on mass. Hypertrophy training did not work for me. But I acknowledge I must be a special case because most of the guys I knew trained like that were able to get quite big but when I did it I saw no mass gains. Lifting heavy with 5x5 with core work was everything for me to progress. [Reply]
So just found out about zone 2 training recently. Really did not understand how easy I had to run. Started running End of May and until the end of August was only running 2 to 5 mpw but at all zone 4 and 5 intensity...like an idiot. Now running 10 mpw in zone 2 since Sept 1 and shaved my 5k time down to 28 minutes. Still bad but seem to be progressing at that distance now that I understand how to train.
Been tracking my heart rate only for 5 weeks now and weird thing is my max HR has increased from 180 to 191 and I haven't even been pushing myself in the hard runs near as much as I used to. Then my avg HR in easy long runs has also been increasing and my easy run pace hasn't improved....yet my 5k time very much improved.
Originally Posted by penguinz:
Mass comes from hypertrophy training (bodybuilding) not from strength training. This is why the first block in a powerlifting or strongman program is a lot of hypertrohpy.
I'm talking about untrained novices. You can put on insane mass the first ~year of training no matter what you do in the gym and generally strength training is more efficient than body building for beginners. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chargem: I'm talking about untrained novices. You can put on insane mass the first ~year of training no matter what you do in the gym and generally strength training is more efficient than body building for beginners.
Unfortunately you really can't use novice lifters to define these things. Noob gains are real. A person new to lifting can go to the gym do every lift wrong and inefficiently and they will still gain mass and strength just because the bar is already so low for them.
When you train for strength you are training your CNS not the muscles. [Reply]
Originally Posted by BWillie:
So just found out about zone 2 training recently. Really did not understand how easy I had to run. Started running End of May and until the end of August was only running 2 to 5 mpw but at all zone 4 and 5 intensity...like an idiot. Now running 10 mpw in zone 2 since Sept 1 and shaved my 5k time down to 28 minutes. Still bad but seem to be progressing at that distance now that I understand how to train.
Been tracking my heart rate only for 5 weeks now and weird thing is my max HR has increased from 180 to 191 and I haven't even been pushing myself in the hard runs near as much as I used to. Then my avg HR in easy long runs has also been increasing and my easy run pace hasn't improved....yet my 5k time very much improved.
What kinda max HRs do you guys have?
Sounds like you're doing a great job in your training, especially with taking advantage of the many aerobic-capacity building advantages of Zone 2 training.
I've not tried to max out my heart rate lately, but I think my maximum is somewhere close to 167, or close to what someone my age (58.8) would have predicted by the formula 208 - (0.7*age). The highest my heart rate has gotten during a recent workout was 171, after running 8 cruise intervals (of 1 km each, with 200 m recoveries) in August.
My resting heart rate this past week has averaged 39. I'm looking forward to the KC Marathon in 10 days, which I'm hoping to finish not too much slower than 5:15, close to my time last year, when I was about 10 pounds lighter. I'll be one of the heavy and slow runners, but my training has gone well these last couple of months and I was able to get my estimated VO2 max back to what Garmin says is excellent for my age group...but it's just barely there, a 44. :-) [Reply]
Originally Posted by penguinz:
Unfortunately you really can't use novice lifters to define these things. Noob gains are real. A person new to lifting can go to the gym do every lift wrong and inefficiently and they will still gain mass and strength just because the bar is already so low for them.
When you train for strength you are training your CNS not the muscles.
What the fuck are you talking about "you really can't use novice lifters" you literally quoted me talking about someones gains during their first 2 years in a gym.
Originally Posted by DanT:
Sounds like you're doing a great job in your training, especially with taking advantage of the many aerobic-capacity building advantages of Zone 2 training.
I've not tried to max out my heart rate lately, but I think my maximum is somewhere close to 167, or close to what someone my age (58.8) would have predicted by the formula 208 - (0.7*age). The highest my heart rate has gotten during a recent workout was 171, after running 8 cruise intervals (of 1 km each, with 200 m recoveries) in August.
My resting heart rate this past week has averaged 39. I'm looking forward to the KC Marathon in 10 days, which I'm hoping to finish not too much slower than 5:15, close to my time last year, when I was about 10 pounds lighter. I'll be one of the heavy and slow runners, but my training has gone well these last couple of months and I was able to get my estimated VO2 max back to what Garmin says is excellent for my age group.
Oh nice! I'm running in the KC Marathon (just the 5k) as well. I ran my first 5k last week in the Martin City area. It was really fun. I think I have the running bug now. I just love to compete. That is an incredible resting heart beat. I don't even really know what mine is because it's so easy for it to fluctuate anytime you move. If I wear my watch when I sleep it will say it's in the 40's for sure but most of the time when I'm just sitting around I am 49-59.
This zone 2 training stuff appears to be very helpful and I bet I'm still running in zone 3 too much. I need to go to some place that will do my lactate threshold stuff and calculate my heart zones for me so I don't overtrain. That was my biggest issue when I started. Just need to run a ton of miles easy mainly so you don't get injured.
How many miles a week do you run? I'm going to work up to 20 and then get to 40 during the winter and really see how well I can do. The thing I like about running is I can absolutely suck at it but if I just put in the miles I will just beat people that don't run as often that are more talented lol [Reply]
Originally Posted by penguinz:
Unfortunately you really can't use novice lifters to define these things. Noob gains are real. A person new to lifting can go to the gym do every lift wrong and inefficiently and they will still gain mass and strength just because the bar is already so low for them.
When you train for strength you are training your CNS not the muscles.
Well put, I'd even mention you can continue to build muscle doing exercises wrong.
However, you are only cheating yourself. Doing workouts correctly isolates the muscle leading to max gains and a portioned body so it should not be taken lightly if you are serious about reaching your bodies full potential. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chargem:
What the **** are you talking about "you really can't use novice lifters" you literally quoted me talking about someones gains during their first 2 years in a gym.
Train some reading comprehension.
You didn't mention novice until the last time I quoted you. If you did then I completely missed it.
My argument still stands... Strength training is not an efficient way to build mass. Yes, a noob will get some size but thats only because they are starting at 0.
Few in this thread are novice lifters so I don't know why its even being discussed? [Reply]
Originally Posted by penguinz:
Unfortunately you really can't use novice lifters to define these things. Noob gains are real. A person new to lifting can go to the gym do every lift wrong and inefficiently and they will still gain mass and strength just because the bar is already so low for them.
When you train for strength you are training your CNS not the muscles.
Any idea if there are longer term studies on training for strength vs hypertrophy and muscle size?
I feel like they'd almost have to do something like the recent stuff I saw where one person did full ROM for half their body and lengthened partials for the other half... but given the overlap in methods, have always been curious if the difference would be like 2% or 20% over time. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Bearcat:
Any idea if there are longer term studies on training for strength vs hypertrophy and muscle size?
I feel like they'd almost have to do something like the recent stuff I saw where one person did full ROM for half their body and lengthened partials for the other half... but given the overlap in methods, have always been curious if the difference would be like 2% or 20% over time.
Hypertrophy builds mass. You get strength along with it but not full potential.
Strength training builds strength. You are training your CNS when strength training. When strength training you are in the low 1-5 rep range so there isn't the volume to cause the muscle tissue breakdown that is needed for muscle building. [Reply]
Originally Posted by penguinz:
Hypertrophy builds mass. You get strength along with it but not full potential.
Strength training builds strength. You are training your CNS when strength training. When strength training you are in the low 1-5 rep range so there isn't the volume to cause the muscle tissue breakdown that is needed for muscle building.
