Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
You guys definitely apply revisionist history to Brees/Payton. Brees was 5th in OPOY voting in 04 and went to the PB, but no one wanted him? He also had one of the lowest INT percentages and TD percentages of his career that season.
You said that he immediately transformed under Payton, but his numbers only went up because he threw a lot more passes. TD% and comp% both went down in his first year in NO. The only improvement was INT%, but that was lower two years earlier in San Diego. He also had a lot of talent around him in NO and was entering his prime years.
As for what was special about his stats? Welp, this is awkward, but.....his 2004 season was statistically better than any season in Elway's entire career. It would be his highest TD total, fewest INTs, lowest INT%, highest Y/A, and by far his highest comp% and QB rating. And only a few years after Elway retired.
Comparing Elway's stats, even with 2004, never made much sense to me. Different situations - apples to oranges. There are just too many moving parts - not just era to era, but team to team, and season to season.
And Brees in San Diego is what I think of when I hear someone use the term "middling." He was fine. But when you played them, you worried much more about LaDainian Tomlinson beating you. And that made Brees better.
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar: KC gave up a hell of a lot to trade up and get Mahomes. Veach had been obsessively scouting him and pounding the table for years. Payton didn't have to give up anything. It's easy to say after the fact that he got "his guy" and "I feel the same about Nix as I did about Mahomes." He'd probably be saying the same thing about Penix or McCarthy.
The bolded reinforces my feelings about the way it went down with drafting Nix. To me, in the immediate aftermath of the draft, the most valid complaint detractors had was, "Well, why take a guy at 12 when you could have probably had him at 25?" As it turns out, there was apparently no way he was going to make it that far - the Rams apparently planned on taking him at 19, if he was there. But more importantly, if he is the guy you want, you don't screw around. Nobody really cares what you gave up to move up and get Mahomes now. Forget about comparisons between Nix and whomever. If that is the guy they want so badly, their draft is going to be ruined if they don't get him, then they did the right thing.
Now we just wait to find out if their feelings about him were justified. Somebody is going to end up being right, and somebody is going to end up being wrong. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DomCasual:
Comparing Elway's stats, even with 2004, never made much sense to me. Different situations - apples to oranges. There are just too many moving parts - not just era to era, but team to team, and season to season.
And Brees in San Diego is what I think of when I hear someone use the term "middling." He was fine. But when you played them, you worried much more about LaDainian Tomlinson beating you. And that made Brees better.
I wasn't saying that Brees's 2004 season was better than any of Elway's...just using your logic. You judged Brees in San Diego solely by numbers, and claimed that Payton transformed him based on the numbers.
You've gotta admit, you guys aren't exactly the most objective when it comes to Elway. :-)
Lot of goalpost-moving when his name enters the discussion. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
I wasn't saying that Brees's 2004 season was better than any of Elway's...just using your logic. You judged Brees in San Diego solely by numbers, and claimed that Payton transformed him based on the numbers.
You've gotta admit, you guys aren't exactly the most objective when it comes to Elway. :-)
Lot of goalpost-moving when his name enters the discussion.
Is any fanbase objective when it comes to their own players, though?
I do wish Elway had played under a different coach for most of his career. I love that old games are starting to show up, in their entirety, on YouTube. But it kills me to rewatch some of those 80s Broncos teams. Dan Reeves was a decent man. But he was Schottenheimer West, when it came to the offense. [Reply]
The same Sean Payton that turned New Orleans roster to a complete fucking joke, put the team in cap hell and bailed, never bothered to field a defense worth a shit, made it past the Divisional ONCE, got embarrassed by Nathaniel Hackett, that dweeb in Miami pummeled him by 70, lost at home to a shit NE team with playoffs on the line....that Sean Payton is going to beat
out Mahomes/Andy with a scared bitch that ran from SEC defenses that he did nothing against? That Bo Nix? The guy that threw over half his passes near the line of scrimmage is going to solve Spags scheme? :-):-):-):-) [Reply]
Originally Posted by DomCasual:
...of his sophomore season in college. Since those games, he has thrown almost 1500 more passes and almost 100 more TD passes. Oh, and in that same three-year period, his teams won almost twice the number of games Mahomes' teams won in his three-year- college career.
This is just silly. Bo Nix played 17 career games against ranked opponents, if I am counting correctly. Those teams would have been loaded with NFL talent. And he finished his career with ridiculous numbers.
Again, no. Comparing draft gurus comments in similar windows after Mahomes and Nix were drafted is a lot different than comparing the players themselves. It simply illustrates the point that those grades and opinions and a few bucks will buy you a cup of coffee.
Do you know who was generally graded as a MUCH BETTER quarterback than Mahomes when they were drafted? That would be one Mitchell Trubisky. Nothing illustrates the point better than that. Mahomes was considered to be the 3rd or 4th best QB prospect in an historically weak QB class. Nix was generally ranked as the 5th or 6th best QB prospect in a draft that was historically top-heavy with QBs. It's apples and oranges.
This is all simply what you do in almost every argument. You take a result, and then reverse engineer opinions or cherry pick results to slap yourself on the back for being a genius.
Nix's ceiling is a more athletic version of Drew Brees. Do I think he is going to end up throwing for 80K yards and almost 600 TDs? No, I think that is unlikely. What I am saying is that none of the predictions right now make any more difference than the ones made seven years ago about Patrick Mahomes. The Chiefs took a giant risk back then that most considered unwise.
The average Broncos fan is being cautiously optimistic about the QB situation. No one is boldly stating that we just drafted a guy who seven years from now will have won multiple Super Bowls and MVPs.
You sure? Cuz seems your smug ass is back YET AGAIN, to tell us how this is the one…AGAIN. It’s like fucking Groundhog Day up in this bitch every time your cheating franchise drafts another bust ass quarterback. The when Mahome shines so bright the Dungkeys see their own shadow…. Another 12 months of losing football while watching your most hated rival stack chips! But yeah, this must the the one, AGAIN! [Reply]
Originally Posted by Coochie liquor:
You sure? Cuz seems your smug ass is back YET AGAIN, to tell us how this is the one…AGAIN. It’s like ****ing Groundhog Day up in this bitch every time your cheating franchise drafts another bust ass quarterback. The when Mahome shines so bright the Dungkeys see their own shadow…. Another 12 months of losing football while watching your most hated rival stack chips! But yeah, this must the the one, AGAIN!
As analysts and fans alike dissect the offseason moves across the AFC North, CBS Sports analyst Aditi Kinkhabwala weighed in during her appearance on "The Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show." She shed light on the Steelers' bold acquisition of Wilson and its potential implications for their division rivals, including the Cleveland Browns.
"He was constantly climbing out of the back of the pocket. He struggled with snap counts. He couldn't manage or handle the play-calling," Kinkhabwala said. "They went from putting a wristband on [him] to by the end of the season, all the play calls had to be two words and everybody else was required to know what the play calls were.”
Kinkhabwala underscored the significance of Sean Payton's decision to part ways with Wilson by highlighting the head coach's track record of success with various quarterbacks. Wilson's coaches' readiness to invest considerable resources to ensure his departure speaks volumes about how negatively he was perceived in Payton's eyes.
"There is a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very valid reason that Sean Payton, who is one of the best quarterback coaches and best offensive minds in our game… is saying I'm going to pay this guy millions upon millions of dollars to be nowhere near my locker room." [Reply]
Originally Posted by DomCasual:
Is any fanbase objective when it comes to their own players, though?
I do wish Elway had played under a different coach for most of his career. I love that old games are starting to show up, in their entirety, on YouTube. But it kills me to rewatch some of those 80s Broncos teams. Dan Reeves was a decent man. But he was Schottenheimer West, when it came to the offense.
Depends on who you’re talking about. I think KC fans have a lower opinion of Alex Smith than probably any other fanbase. And he took them to the playoffs yearly. Mahomes? Well, yeah, he can do no wrong in the eyes of most. Although I’m not sure the average KC fan says anything about Mahomes that isn’t echoed by national analysts. There just isn’t much to criticize at this point in his career.
Elway, on the other hand, had a bunch of seasons with more INTs than TDs, and weaker stats in general than a lot of his peers throughout his era. In 84, Marino threw for over 5000 yds with 48 TDs/17 INTs on 564 attempts, and completed 64%. The next year, Elway threw 22 TDs with 23 picks, under 3900 yds, and completed 54% on over 600 attempts. And that was the only season he reached 20 TDs in his first decade. Marino may have had better receivers at the time, but not that much better. Even when Elway had Shanahan and a loaded roster, he couldn’t touch those numbers. He was also outplayed by guys like Favre and Young in the 90s.
And yes, I realize that Marino’s 84 season was an outlier for that era, but there were a lot of QBs putting up better numbers, and not all of them were in great situations (including Marino).
Elway may have been one of the most talented QBs ever, but he didn’t consistently produce at an elite level. I think people got sucked up in the media hype. He was crowned the greatest QB prospect ever, so people fell all over themselves to glorify every play he made and to justify why he wasn’t living up to the expectations they set. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DomCasual:
But more importantly, if he is the guy you want, you don't screw around. Nobody really cares what you gave up to move up and get Mahomes now. Forget about comparisons between Nix and whomever. If that is the guy they want so badly, their draft is going to be ruined if they don't get him, then they did the right thing.
Now we just wait to find out if their feelings about him were justified. Somebody is going to end up being right, and somebody is going to end up being wrong.
There's a lot of truth in this, but the Broncos pretty clearly reached on the pick. The Rams may or may not have taken him at #19, but he was almost universally seen as a top of the second round type player. The one thing that changed everything for him was the fact that he's a QB and the Broncos were/are desperate for a QB. That is the one thing that moved him up so far. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
Elway may have been one of the most talented QBs ever, but he didn’t consistently produce at an elite level. I think people got sucked up in the media hype. He was crowned the greatest QB prospect ever, so people fell all over themselves to glorify every play he made and to justify why he wasn’t living up to the expectations they set.
At the time he retired, he was ranked 1st - 3rd in most relevant QB related stats. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
At the time he retired, he was ranked 1st - 3rd in most relevant QB related stats.
I get that you guys love Elway and I’m not saying you shouldn’t, but come on, man…you know that career stats aren’t a good way to compare players. Especially considering the 16 game schedule was implemented a few years before Elway’s first season.
And you can’t pick and choose, saying “throw out the stats” while also pointing to his career totals. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
I get that you guys love Elway and I’m not saying you shouldn’t, but come on, man…you know that career stats aren’t a good way to compare players. Especially considering the 16 game schedule was implemented a few years before Elway’s first season.
And you can’t pick and choose, saying “throw out the stats” while also pointing to his career totals.
I am not suggesting they throw out any stats. Simply put, he is one of the greatest QBs of all time. I’m not getting into a debate on it, people are welcome to their opinions. [Reply]
