Just outside the top 10 in INTs.
Was the most sacked QB all-time
The last 25 years has seen a lot of change with the passing rules and style of play.
I'm not here to stop the piling on, please have fun with it... just saying that at the time he retired, he was at the top of the most significant categories and a few of the not so great. It happens.
Biggest change for Elway was moving on from Reeves and ultimately getting Shanahan.
I'm not doubting that significant rules have been established in recent years to protect QBs, and what were legal hits back in the day now get roughing penalties. But come on. 25 years? In other words, Elway retired and the NFL put in alllll these rules and then it was a QB party?
The changes that actually matter to this conversation have only been around under 15 years. Plenty of QBs like Warner and Favre did most of their damage in the NFL that was basically the same as Elway's NFL.
He's a HOF QB. But he's not on the QB Mt. Rushmore. Not even fucking close. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
Come on, man. Longevity stats don’t mean much, good or bad. Do you think Eli Manning was better than Mahomes?
Do you at least agree that the “Reeves didn’t throw” narrative is way overblown? Elway was often top 5ish in pass attempts under him.
No, Mahomes is in a completely different class than most QBs. I have no issues saying that, the dude is incredible to watch.
I'm just saying that despite whatever shortcomings people believe Elway had (25 years later) or the coaching, etc... when he retired, there were only 1-2 guys that were right up there with him.
Longevity stats - people tend to pick and choose when they use them. My comment is that when he retired, compared to all those that came before him, he was consistently a top threat. I know there were many around here in '99 that were happy to see him gone.
The game continues to change. The 80s/90s were much different than the 60s/70s, it happens. We are at a point now where there are probably quite a few posters on this board that never saw him, Marino, Moon, etc play.
Look at a lot of those leaders boards now and there are few that I would want as a QB in his prime leading a team over Elway.
You can be a Rivers, Ryan, etc kind of QB with longevity and nice stats, but they were never known as clutch. Reeves was a very conservative guy, hell as soon as he left, just look at the production in the Phillips and Shanahan years... totally different than Reeves.
Mahomes is a generational talent and he could very well knock Brady from the top of Lombardi Mountain. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
I'm not doubting that significant rules have been established in recent years to protect QBs, and what were legal hits back in the day now get roughing penalties. But come on. 25 years? In other words, Elway retired and the NFL put in alllll these rules and then it was a QB party?
The changes that actually matter to this conversation have only been around under 15 years. Plenty of QBs like Warner and Favre did most of their damage in the NFL that was basically the same as Elway's NFL.
He's a HOF QB. But he's not on the QB Mt. Rushmore. Not even ****ing close.
The game is much different over the last 25 years than it was in the 80s/90s. The age of the dominant RB has been dead for a long time and these air it out offenses are just not what you saw on a consistent basis in the 80s/90s. The game has advanced and yes, the rules on how a QB gets hit and is protected has been 15-20 years in the making. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
The game is much different over the last 25 years than it was in the 80s/90s. The age of the dominant RB has been dead for a long time and these air it out offenses are just not what you saw on a consistent basis in the 80s/90s. The game has advanced and yes, the rules on how a QB gets hit and is protected has been 15-20 years in the making.
Oh, that's your thing? The game was just played differently?
Whatever, man. You're gonna tell me Warner's incredible 1999 season was in this brave new era that Elway never got to experience? Marino? Young? Again, Favre? Hell, ever look up Len Dawson's stats? He had two seasons with more TD passes than Elway's best season.
You would have been better off going down Garcia's path of, "Only people who saw him play will know how good he was because of the eye test. And if you disagree you're an idiot." [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
The game is much different over the last 25 years than it was in the 80s/90s. The age of the dominant RB has been dead for a long time and these air it out offenses are just not what you saw on a consistent basis in the 80s/90s. The game has advanced and yes, the rules on how a QB gets hit and is protected has been 15-20 years in the making.
The game evolves. The rules Elway played under were also different than the rules that previous generations had played under. Elway had advantages that QBs like Namath, Unitas, Luckman, Graham, Bradshaw, etc did not. How much did Elway benefit from rules changes over previous QBs? [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
Oh, that's your thing? The game was just played differently?
Whatever, man. You're gonna tell me Warner's incredible 1999 season was in this brave new era that Elway never got to experience? Marino? Young? Again, Favre? Hell, ever look up Len Dawson's stats? He had two seasons with more TD passes than Elway's best season.
You would have been better off going down Garcia's path of, "Only people who saw him play will know how good he was because of the eye test. And if you disagree you're an idiot."
That's not how I was painting it, but ok. I'm not on a mission to win hearts and minds around here, or change opinions.
Originally Posted by RedinTexas:
The game evolves. The rules Elway played under were also different than the rules that previous generations had played under. Elway had advantages that QBs like Namath, Unitas, Luckman, Graham, Bradshaw, etc did not. How much did Elway benefit from rules changes over previous QBs?
Totally agree and mentioned that a few posts earlier, that's what makes the comparisons over decades tricky. [Reply]
Originally Posted by MagicHef:
I wonder if Favre ahead of Manning is a normal view among non-KC fans. I guess I don't see it, Manning has more yards, more TDs, more SB wins and fewer INTs in fewer years. He also did not lose a Super Bowl to noted horrible QB John Elway.
Favre was an absolute blast to watch, but he's not in the same realm as Manning for the Colts. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RedinTexas:
The game evolves. The rules Elway played under were also different than the rules that previous generations had played under. Elway had advantages that QBs like Namath, Unitas, Luckman, Graham, Bradshaw, etc did not. How much did Elway benefit from rules changes over previous QBs?
probably not much compared to today. They make rule changes every year now. From line play, to hitting, who you can hit, how you can hit them, how rules are enforced, etc. Cut blocking is probably one of the bigger things that have destroyed the running game in addition to the Walsh system. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
No, Mahomes is in a completely different class than most QBs. I have no issues saying that, the dude is incredible to watch.
I'm just saying that despite whatever shortcomings people believe Elway had (25 years later) or the coaching, etc... when he retired, there were only 1-2 guys that were right up there with him.
Longevity stats - people tend to pick and choose when they use them. My comment is that when he retired, compared to all those that came before him, he was consistently a top threat. I know there were many around here in '99 that were happy to see him gone.
The game continues to change. The 80s/90s were much different than the 60s/70s, it happens. We are at a point now where there are probably quite a few posters on this board that never saw him, Marino, Moon, etc play.
Look at a lot of those leaders boards now and there are few that I would want as a QB in his prime leading a team over Elway.
You can be a Rivers, Ryan, etc kind of QB with longevity and nice stats, but they were never known as clutch. Reeves was a very conservative guy, hell as soon as he left, just look at the production in the Phillips and Shanahan years... totally different than Reeves.
Mahomes is a generational talent and he could very well knock Brady from the top of Lombardi Mountain.
At the end of the day, we all respect Elway. I just think it's a stretch to put him in the top 5 all-time. I think Elway tends to get a bump based on his initial hype, raw ability, style of play, nostalgia, etc. I think he and Mahomes are similar in terms of ability and style, but I think Mahomes is more consistent, among others. [Reply]