Originally Posted by tredadda:
I am no Broncos fan nor am I am Elway fan, but to compare his stats to modern QBs is silly. He played in an era when QBs didn’t put up the same numbers they do now. For their generation only Marino was more prolific. Elway did win a lot of games in big situations outside the SB.
Ok, so respond to my previous post.
Len Dawson kicked his equine ass in a 14 game season. [Reply]
How is he computing drop rate here? Per Fox Sports, Jeudy has 27 drops and 120 catches for his career, with 4 drops and 30 receptions this season. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla: How is he computing drop rate here? Per Fox Sports, Jeudy has 27 drops and 120 catches for his career, with 4 drops and 30 receptions this season.
And even if his numbers are accurate, Jeudy's still considerably worse than last year's average. Funny thing to flex about.
Also funny to just ignore the worst game. That game doesn't happen to a player who isn't drop-happy. I'm sure if Jeudy had a 6 TD game, he'd call it an outlier and say it doesn't represent him accurately, right? :-) [Reply]
Geno is having his Case Keenum/Teddy B "good season" and should be able to parlay that into something nice next season... when he slips back into being Geno.
The Seahawks were interested. Hell, maybe others were as well. If you think the GM's job is simply to identify/pay people based on what they've ALREADY done, literally anybody could do it. If, on the other hand, you think the GM's job is to project/predict what the player COULD/WILL be in the future, it becomes much more difficult/elite.
Trading insane capital/paying $250 million for what Fat Rus has done in the past? I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to do something like that. [Reply]
So if we ignore Jeudy's bad plays, his good plays are slightly above average. How would he compare if we eliminated every other player's bad plays? [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
Ok, so respond to my previous post.
Len Dawson kicked his equine ass in a 14 game season.
I don't think I said that no QB ever during the 80s or prior decades failed to put up big TD years. From the 1960s through the late 90s, roughly 2003 - you had a 4-6 guys on a regular basis over 26 passing TDs.
Around 2004-2005, that's when you see things really jump and fairly consistently you have a dozen QBs surpassing that 25-26 TD mark.
What changed? The rules about how you can hit/attack receivers and QBs...
If you think I'm arguing that no QB ever had a prolific season in the 60s-80s like now, you're mistaken. It was far from the norm like it is now.
There were 9 QBs with more than 33 TD passes last year. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
I don't think I said that no QB ever during the 80s or prior decades failed to put up big TD years. From the 1960s through the late 90s, roughly 2003 - you had a 4-6 guys on a regular basis over 26 passing TDs.
Around 2004-2005, that's when you see things really jump and fairly consistently you have a dozen QBs surpassing that 25-26 TD mark.
What changed? The rules about how you can hit/attack receivers and QBs...
If you think I'm arguing that no QB ever had a prolific season in the 60s-80s like now, you're mistaken. It was far from the norm like it is now.
There were 9 QBs with more than 33 TD passes last year.
I think my main point about Elway was that his TD numbers were generally good, but not great. I don't dispute that Elway should be in the hall of fame, but it really is surprising to see his year-by-year TD numbers while knowing that he is in the hall of fame. They are not impressive. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RedinTexas:
I think my main point about Elway was that his TD numbers were generally good, but not great. I don't dispute that Elway should be in the hall of fame, but it really is surprising to see his year-by-year TD numbers while knowing that he is in the hall of fame. They are not impressive.
The thing I look at is the style of offense and unfortunately for him, Reeves did not call a wide open style of offense. You can view the Reeves' era and the post-Reeves' era with Elway and see the dramatic difference. Just look at it up to 1992 and after, you'll see the difference.
And again, you just have to look at where he finished at retirement against all QBs that had ever played the game. Elway was in the top 1-5 of every major category when he retired at the end of 1998.
QBs started to explode with regularity in the early 2000's, that's just a fact.
In his era, Jim Kelly played in a more prolific offense... not like Marino or Moon, but even Jim's #s were not that much greater than Elway.
Many people view all QBs in all eras as equal in the framework of how the game was played and that's flawed. Yes, there were exceptions to this comment, but they were few and far between. Elway has still started in the 2nd most Super Bowl games all time (for QBs). Reeves had them poorly set up for success leading up to the 3 in the 80s, that is well documented.
Most wins by a Starting QB ... Brady (247), Favre (188), P Manning (187), Brees (172), Roethlisberger (166), Elway (149)
Top 6 as of now... was #1 at retirement. Favre's first season was 1991, 7 years before Elway retired. The other four started after 1998. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
The thing I look at is the style of offense and unfortunately for him, Reeves did not call a wide open style of offense. You can view the Reeves' era and the post-Reeves' era with Elway and see the dramatic difference. Just look at it up to 1992 and after, you'll see the difference.
And again, you just have to look at where he finished at retirement against all QBs that had ever played the game. Elway was in the top 3-5 of every major category when he retired at the end of 1998.
QBs started to explode with regularity in the early 2000's, that's just a fact.
In his era, Jim Kelly played in a more prolific offense... not like Marino or Moon, but even Jim's #s were not that much greater than Elway.
Many people view all QBs in all eras as equal in the framework of how the game was played and that's flawed. Yes, there were exceptions to this comment, but they were few and far between. Elway has still started in the 2nd most Super Bowl games all time (for QBs). Reeves had them poorly set up for success leading up to the 3 in the 80s, that is well documented.
Most wins by a Starting QB ... Brady (247), Favre (188), P Manning (187), Brees (172), Roethlisberger (166), Elway (149)
Top 6 as of now... was #1 at retirement.
Elway's TD numbers each season:
1983 - 7 TDs
1984 - 18 TDs, 11th in league (Marino 48, Krieg 32)
1985 - 22 TDs, tied for 7th in league (Marino 30, 4 w/ 27)
1986 - 19 TDs, tied for 9th in league (Marino 44, O'Brien 25)
1987 - 19 TDs, tied for 8th in league (Montana 31, Marino 26)
1988 - 17 TDs, tied for 11th in league (Everett 31, 2 w/ 28)
1989 - 18 TDs, tied for 12th in league (Everett 29, Esiason 28)
1990 - 15 TDs, tied for 18th in league (Moon 33, Cunningham 30)
1991 - 13 TDs, tied for 11th in league (Kelly 33, Rypien 28)
1992 - 10 TDs, 22nd in league (Young 25, Marino 24)
1993 - 25 TDs, 2nd in league (Young 29)
1994 - 16 TDs, tied for 12th in league (Young 35, Favre 33)
1995 - 26 TDs, tied for 6th in league (Favre 38, Moon 33)
1996 - 26 TDs, 4th in league (Favre 39, Testaverde 33)
1997 - 27 TDs, 4th in league (Favre 35, George 29)
1998 - 22 TDs, 9th in league (Young 36, Cunningham 34)
As you can see, Elway's TD pass numbers are not great. It looks like his average finish over his career is around 10th place or worse. Except for the one season where he finished 2nd with 25, his TD totals were never comparable to the leaders.
Let me reiterate that I think Elway deserves to be in the hall of fame. I am not saying he was undeserving. However, his TD pass numbers were mostly pedestrian numbers on a year-by-year basis. He clearly brought more to the table than just his TD numbers, but I don't think anyone can look at the numbers above and argue that they clearly merit the hall of fame. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
The thing I look at is the style of offense and unfortunately for him, Reeves did not call a wide open style of offense. You can view the Reeves' era and the post-Reeves' era with Elway and see the dramatic difference. Just look at it up to 1992 and after, you'll see the difference.
And again, you just have to look at where he finished at retirement against all QBs that had ever played the game. Elway was in the top 1-5 of every major category when he retired at the end of 1998.
QBs started to explode with regularity in the early 2000's, that's just a fact.
In his era, Jim Kelly played in a more prolific offense... not like Marino or Moon, but even Jim's #s were not that much greater than Elway.
Many people view all QBs in all eras as equal in the framework of how the game was played and that's flawed. Yes, there were exceptions to this comment, but they were few and far between. Elway has still started in the 2nd most Super Bowl games all time (for QBs). Reeves had them poorly set up for success leading up to the 3 in the 80s, that is well documented.
Most wins by a Starting QB ... Brady (247), Favre (188), P Manning (187), Brees (172), Roethlisberger (166), Elway (149)
Top 6 as of now... was #1 at retirement. Favre's first season was 1991, 7 years before Elway retired. The other four started after 1998.
Everybody understands the difference in eras. But you can't just pull that card to excuse every stat that doesn't look great.
His TD/INT ratio wasn't that good. He had several seasons with more INTs than TDs, and several more in which he had the same of each or maybe 1 more TD than INT.
Also, if you're going to highlight the number of SB appearances, you need to factor the era into that conversation too. Do you think he'd have appeared in that many Super Bowls if he were facing Allen or Mahomes rather than Bernie Kosar? [Reply]
Originally Posted by RedinTexas:
Elway's TD numbers each season:
1983 - 7 TDs
1984 - 18 TDs, 11th in league (Marino 48, Krieg 32)
1985 - 22 TDs, tied for 7th in league (Marino 30, 4 w/ 27)
1986 - 19 TDs, tied for 9th in league (Marino 44, O'Brien 25)
1987 - 19 TDs, tied for 8th in league (Montana 31, Marino 26)
1988 - 17 TDs, tied for 11th in league (Everett 31, 2 w/ 28)
1989 - 18 TDs, tied for 12th in league (Everett 29, Esiason 28)
1990 - 15 TDs, tied for 18th in league (Moon 33, Cunningham 30)
1991 - 13 TDs, tied for 11th in league (Kelly 33, Rypien 28)
1992 - 10 TDs, 22nd in league (Young 25, Marino 24)
1993 - 25 TDs, 2nd in league (Young 29)
1994 - 16 TDs, tied for 12th in league (Young 35, Favre 33)
1995 - 26 TDs, tied for 6th in league (Favre 38, Moon 33)
1996 - 26 TDs, 4th in league (Favre 39, Testaverde 33)
1997 - 27 TDs, 4th in league (Favre 35, George 29)
1998 - 22 TDs, 9th in league (Young 36, Cunningham 34)
As you can see, Elway's TD pass numbers are not great. It looks like his average finish over his career is around 10th place or worse. Except for the one season where he finished 2nd with 25, his TD totals were never comparable to the leaders.
Let me reiterate that I think Elway deserves to be in the hall of fame. I am not saying he was undeserving. However, his TD pass numbers were mostly pedestrian numbers on a year-by-year basis. He clearly brought more to the table than just his TD numbers, but I don't think anyone can look at the numbers above and argue that they clearly merit the hall of fame.
That's why you don't just look at stats for HOF. And, you clearly showed my point about Reeves.
And, again at the time of his retirement, having played 16 seasons, Elway had 300 career regular season passing TDs.
As of his retirement in 1998, Elway ranked 3rd behind Marino and Tarkenton. So, despite your view on his career TD totals, #3 all time at retirement after the 1998 season is a pretty sweet place to be.
Since then, following along with the narrative of the league becoming incredibly more passer friendly and protective of QBs, Elway has fallen from #3 to 13 with Brady, Brees, P Manning, Favre, Rodgers, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Ryan and Stafford taking the leap above 300.
Think about it, as of the start of the 1999 season - only 3 QBs had thrown more than 300 career regular season TDs.
In the last 23.5 seasons, there are 8 QBs over 400 career TDs (one being Marino who was above Elway and another being Favre, in the league as of 1991).
3 guys in the history of the NFL from the merger through 1998 cleared 300... since then, it's taken off like a rocket. The game has advanced, rules are different and the style of play is completely different. It's a process of the league evolving, but again - that's why you just can't compare players (not just QBs) against their peers that played decades apart. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
Everybody understands the difference in eras. But you can't just pull that card to excuse every stat that doesn't look great.
His TD/INT ratio wasn't that good. He had several seasons with more INTs than TDs, and several more in which he had the same of each or maybe 1 more TD than INT.
Also, if you're going to highlight the number of SB appearances, you need to factor the era into that conversation too. Do you think he'd have appeared in that many Super Bowls if he were facing Allen or Mahomes rather than Bernie Kosar?
First, the Allen/Mahomes thing is silly. I could just say "do you think Allen/Mahomes would survive the NFL of the 70s/80s"?
And, I'm not sugar coating or cherry picking stats. I'm addressing the one that was brought up - TDs.
The differences in the eras do matter when you're comparing careers. [Reply]
