Originally Posted by RunKC:
Not only did the 49ers find Joe Montana and Steve Young, they also drafted Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick who took them to the Championship game and a SB. They also traded for Jimmy Grapes and went to a SB with him.
Steelers identified Big Ben. Kordell Stewart was identified by them and went to the AFCCG. They drafted Bradshaw. They found Neil O’Donnel and went to a SB with him.
The Packers found both Favre and Rodgers when nobody else thought much of them. They deserve massive credit for that.
The Broncos fell into a whiny Elway who was “the greatest QB prospect ever” at the time. Then they fell into Manning who was a HOF before he ever put on a jersey.
They can’t find any real talent themselves. They never have.
You seem to be focused on drafting vs signing/trading. That’s not the discussion. [Reply]
Originally Posted by MagicHef:
The Patriots have won consistently without a great QB?
The Patriots have played in 2 SBs w/out Brady and an AFL championship. They also went 11-5 with Matt Cassel and returned to the playoffs two years after Brady left, with a mediocre rookie QB. They've only had 9 losing seasons since 1975.
And if you're arguing that they dominated the NFL for 20 years simply because they had Brady, that's funny. They dominated because they consistently made good personnel decisions, drafted well, and had excellent coaching (and some cheating, of course).
If Denver had a recent period of dominance anywhere close to what the Patriots did, I wouldn't deny that they're a great organization. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
The Patriots have played in 2 SBs w/out Brady and an AFL championship. They also went 11-5 with Matt Cassel and returned to the playoffs two years after Brady left, with a mediocre rookie QB. They've only had 9 losing seasons since 1975.
And if you're arguing that they dominated the NFL for 20 years simply because they had Brady, that's funny. They dominated because they consistently made good personnel decisions, drafted well, and had excellent coaching (and some cheating, of course).
If Denver had a recent period of dominance anywhere close to what the Patriots did, I wouldn't deny that they're a great organization.
They went to 2 SBs (and lost both) in the span of 40 years before Brady. That’s definitely what I’d call a consistent winner.
I’m not saying they’re not a great team (now). I’m really only laughing at your earlier post that a great team is one that consistently wins without a great QB.
Do the Broncos get credit for going to the AFCCG with Plummer? [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania:
Again, you can look at these things from all sorts of perspectives.
They were terrible from '62-76.
They made the SB in '77 and then in the next 5 years before Elway, they won 10 games in 3 of those years.
Elway comes to down, they go to the playoffs 10X with 5 trips and 2 wins in the SB. Denver had the 2nd highest winning percentage during 83-98, second only to the 49ers.
They fell to 10th highest in winning percentage in the years between Elway and Manning. However in those 13 years, they were .500 or better in 10 of those years with 5 trips to the playoffs.
We know the Manning years and it wasn't until 2016 that the franchise took a true downward spiral, putting up 3 consecutive losing seasons for the first time since Bowlen bought the team in the early 80s.
Sure, the last 6 years have been brutal with 5 of those years being consecutive losing seasons. So, yeah recent history sucks, but throughout my lifetime, they've been a winning organization pretty consistently.
Everybody's entitled to their own opinions.
My opinion is that a great organization would not have both a 6 year streak and a 5 year streak w/out a playoff appearance in a span of 15 years. That's not just mediocre...that's bad.
And you have to admit, for a franchise with a solid history, Denver has had more than its share of lopsided playoff losses. 60% of their playoff appearances (including Elway/Manning) have ended in losses of 17 points or more. Many have been well over 20 points. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
Everybody's entitled to their own opinions.
My opinion is that a great organization would not have both a 6 year streak and a 5 year streak w/out a playoff appearance in a span of 15 years. That's not just mediocre...that's bad.
And you have to admit, for a franchise with a solid history, Denver has had more than its share of lopsided playoff losses. 60% of their playoff appearances (including Elway/Manning) have ended in losses of 17 points or more. Many have been well over 20 points.
Great franchises don’t have multiple 20+ year playoff win droughts. [Reply]
Originally Posted by MagicHef:
They went to 2 SBs (and lost both) in the span of 40 years before Brady. That’s definitely what I’d call a consistent winner.
I’m not saying they’re not a great team (now). I’m really only laughing at your earlier post that a great team is one that consistently wins without a great QB.
Do the Broncos get credit for going to the AFCCG with Plummer?
I didn't say that an organization needs to win a bunch of SBs w/out a great QB to be a great organization. You inferred that.
I laid out several reasons for why I consider the Patriots a great organization. And there are more. Again, if Denver had won at an absurd level over the last 20 years, I wouldn't deny that they were a great organization. Instead, they've missed the playoffs 11 times in the last 16 years. And one of those playoff appearances was the 8-8 team led by Tebow.
IMO, if the Patriots had never drafted Brady, they'd still be considered a pretty good organization. They helped to create Brady, and Belichick would have won at a decent clip with another QB.
If the Broncos hadn't acquired Elway or Manning, I think they'd be considered a dogshit organization. [Reply]
Originally Posted by MagicHef:
Great franchises don’t have multiple 20+ year playoff win droughts.
True. I said that KC became a great organization after hiring Reid. I didn't say they were great before.
Every KC fan admits that they didn't accomplish a lot between the 60s and Mahomes. Yet they still rank several places higher than Denver in all time win %. What's that tell you? [Reply]
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
Everybody's entitled to their own opinions.
My opinion is that a great organization would not have both a 6 year streak and a 5 year streak w/out a playoff appearance in a span of 15 years. That's not just mediocre...that's bad.
And you have to admit, for a franchise with a solid history, Denver has had more than its share of lopsided playoff losses. 60% of their playoff appearances (including Elway/Manning) have ended in losses of 17 points or more. Many have been well over 20 points.
True, that's why they are called sports debates.
If we're being honest - the Steelers are probable the most stable and consistent franchise of all-time.
The 49ers and Packers are up there with them... Dallas was until the wheels fell off in the mid/late 90s and they've gone a quarter century without anything worth noting. The Cowboys, more than any other team in the last 25 years have done more to tarnish a culture of greatness that had been running wild for decades.
We can also judge the merits of playoff quality wins/losses in a different discussion. In order to advance to the playoffs, the team is winning to get there and winning to reach those SBs.
The Broncos are tied for 2nd overall in most SB appearances with 8 and that is 3 fewer than the Patriots and tied with the Steelers and Cowboys. The Broncos are tied for 4th with the most SB wins.
They have the 6th most wins since the NFL merger... considering they've had their droughts, that's a nice place to be sitting.
Now, they need to course correct things and avoid becoming the next Dallas Cowboys.
Since 1996 (25 years), the Cowboys have ...
> had 11 playoff appearances with a 4 and 11 record in the playoffs
> 9 double digit win seasons
> 8 sub .500 win seasons
It amazes me that the Steelers have had only 3 head coaches in my lifetime (51 years), that's crazy insane. [Reply]
This is a non-Kyle Pitts selection because Pitts already broke 1,000 yards receiving as a rookie tight end. It’s hard to overemphasize the force of nature that Pitts is, but let’s focus on someone else.
At around 260 pounds, Okwuegbunam is a tight end with the size to play attached to the formation as a blocker in the run game, and he flashes the play strength and technique to be a plus player at the point of attack.
Okwuegbunam was targeted only 40 times last season, but he was a small-sample-size-statistical darling — his 7.4 YAC/reception led all tight ends — and the production matches the eye test.
Okwuegbunam flashed athleticism, playmaking and the all-important ability to win versus man coverage. His 3.08 yards per route run versus man coverage was first among tight ends with at least 40 targets in 2021, according to TruMedia.
The Broncos’ trade of tight end Noah Fant will naturally lead to an increased role for Okwuegbunam, a 2020 fourth-round pick. Though Denver has other weapons in Courtland Sutton, Tim Patrick and Jerry Jeudy, Okwuegbunam’s size will give Russell Wilson a safety blanket underneath. Okwuegbunam should be a dynamic auxiliary option who might get highlighted more and more as the 2022 season goes along.
CB: Patrick Surtain II, Denver Broncos
Spoiler!
This one honestly feels like cheating.
Surtain, a 2021 first-round pick, was playing like a top-tier cornerback before last year’s holiday season even started. It’s notable when any rookie is a positive contributor, but the number of rookie cornerbacks who have been legitimate good players over the past decade can be counted on one hand.
At 6-2 with 4.4 speed, Surtain plays with outstanding technique and awareness that reflects his pedigree. He is more than willing as a tackler, and he played like a Pro Bowler in pass coverage to end the year, when former Broncos head coach Vic Fangio increasingly started to leave Surtain on an island in man coverage against talented receivers.
Surtain allowed only 5.7 yards per target last season, according to Pro Football Reference. Out of 286 qualifying players, only 34 were better by that metric, which had Surtain in line with cornerbacks who received significant paydays this offseason, such as Denzel Ward (5.6), D.J. Reed (5.8) and Carlton Davis (6.0).
Surtain will make it hard for the Broncos’ opponents to throw to whomever he ends up locking down on a weekly basis in 2022. Though he’s just 22 years old, he has the ability not only to be a Pro Bowler in his second season, but possibly an All-Pro candidate.
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
True. I said that KC became a great organization after hiring Reid. I didn't say they were great before.
Every KC fan admits that they didn't accomplish a lot between the 60s and Mahomes. Yet they still rank several places higher than Denver in all time win %. What's that tell you?
It tells me that from 1960 through 1976 the Broncos were a really bad team. [Reply]
