Because of all the interest in this thread, I've place all of the video content of Patrick Mahomes II's college career, and draft day goodness into a single post that can be found here. Enjoy! [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I love those stats, but I learned something a long while back in baseball - historical greatness is largely determined by the back half of these guys careers.
Tom Glavine was, I thought, the best example. At 30 years old he was, I thought, a very good pitcher. But hell, guys like Corey Kluber were better through 30 than Glavine. Glavine is great because of what he did from 31 and forward...
Brady's the same way. Hell, Jordan is. These guys were as great in the 2nd half of their career, when 'on the downhill slide' as they were as they entered and were in their primes.
Now maybe Mahomes is the exception to the rule; a Sandy Koufax or Pedro Martinez. A guy so preternaturally good that he's an all-timer based on a short body of work. Hell, we KNOW he is. But if he wants to clear Tom Brady in the eyes of many, it'll likely be what happens AFTER he's 35 that decides it. That's how crazy the numbers Brady put up were. Not because of what he did, but how long he did it and how long he sustained at that level.
That's Tiger Woods vs Jack Nicklaus comparison as well [Reply]
Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry:
That's Tiger Woods vs Jack Nicklaus comparison as well
Oh yeah - that's another good one as well.
There's a bunch of those out there. One of the few guys I can think of who simply treaded water in the back half of his career and is still seen as an all-time great is Albert Pujols.
But even Aaron Rodgers has seen his historical standing waver a little even with a couple late career MVPs because he wasn't also winning anything of note.
Brady's just such a !@#$ing hard rabbit to chase because he never dropped off and the stability of the organization around him let him have a 2nd dynasty. He's messed up our barometer for greatness a little bit. [Reply]
Brady doesn't deserve a Jack Nicklaus comparison. He has the longevity, but the guy was barely the best player at his position for more than a couple of years in his entire 20+ year career. Mahomes has been the best QB for six years running now and that is not showing any signs of stopping any time soon. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Oh yeah - that's another good one as well.
There's a bunch of those out there. One of the few guys I can think of who simply treaded water in the back half of his career and is still seen as an all-time great is Albert Pujols.
But even Aaron Rodgers has seen his historical standing waver a little even with a couple late career MVPs because he wasn't also winning anything of note.
Brady's just such a !@#$ing hard rabbit to chase because he never dropped off and the stability of the organization around him let him have a 2nd dynasty. He's messed up our barometer for greatness a little bit.
The goal ain’t Brady, it’s Montana & Bradshaw. And it’s a very realistic possibility to get there. One more strong run through the Playoffs will do it. I don’t take any of it for granted though. Every other team is going all out to take down the Chiefs. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DRM08:
The goal ain’t Brady, it’s Montana & Bradshaw. And it’s a very realistic possibility to get there. One more strong run through the Playoffs will do it. I don’t take any of it for granted though. Every other team is going all out to take down the Chiefs.
Does anyone really mention Bradshaw in the same breath as Mahomes? Bradshaw is just 70s Aikman and I think just about everyone recognizes that.
Very few seem inclined to even mention Montana anymore, though I agree that he's the next man up. [Reply]
Originally Posted by KC_Connection:
Brady doesn't deserve a Jack Nicklaus comparison. He has the longevity, but the guy was barely the best player at his position for more than a couple of years in his entire 20+ year career. Mahomes has been the best QB for six years running now and that is not showing any signs of stopping any time soon.
Eh - that's not true.
People don't give Brady enough credit for what he did from about 2007 through 2017. He was undeniably the best QB in the NFL over that 10 year span. Did he have the best season every year? No - but neither has Mahomes.
Guys like Rodgers or Brees occasionally having better years than Brady didn't make them better QBs. He was absolutely the best at his position for a decade and deserves all the credit he gets for that. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Does anyone really mention Bradshaw in the same breath as Mahomes? Bradshaw is just 70s Aikman and I think just about everyone recognizes that.
Very few seem inclined to even mention Montana anymore, though I agree that he's the next man up.
Just saying 4 rings would do the trick for Patrick to be #2 on the GOAT list. He is only 1 Playoff win short of Montana right now, which is pretty wild at such a young age. One strong run through the Playoffs and it’s a done deal. He’s already destroying Montana (and Brady, and everyone else) in the comeback win percentage, both for regular season and playoffs.
This is ridiculous stuff, while trailing by 7+ points in Playoffs:
1. Mahomes is 9-2. Patrick wins 82% of the time. One of the losses was the Dee Ford fiasco or he would be 10-1.
2. Brady is 10-11. Very good compared to other QB’s, but still losing 52% of the time.
3. Montana is 4-6. Similar sample size to Mahomes, but Patrick smokes him. Joe loses 60% of the time.
4. Peyton Manning only won 25% of the time in this situation. [Reply]
I think the term Goat needs defined. It isn't greatest career of all time. It's the greatest of all time.
Just like Bo Jackson you should still be considered if you are so dominant during your time. In my opinion Warner should be discussed. (Obviously isn't the goat but in the conversation as they were legitimately dominant)
If aliens are invading and the only way to stop them is to win the game. Who do you pick to run the offense if you can have anyone at the peak of their skills. [Reply]
Three Super Bowls wins in five years with three different sets of starting Tackles. That's a lot of change at important positions and I don't think that's something that should be overlooked in the greatness that is Patrick Mahomes II. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Eh - that's not true.
People don't give Brady enough credit for what he did from about 2007 through 2017. He was undeniably the best QB in the NFL over that 10 year span. Did he have the best season every year? No - but neither has Mahomes.
Guys like Rodgers or Brees occasionally having better years than Brady didn't make them better QBs. He was absolutely the best at his position for a decade and deserves all the credit he gets for that.
Yeah but it helps immensely when you have somebody calling the coverages into your ear at the snap and when you know what the defense is calling from your videos.
brady is ineligible for this discussion in my book. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DRM08:
The goal ain’t Brady, it’s Montana & Bradshaw. And it’s a very realistic possibility to get there. One more strong run through the Playoffs will do it. I don’t take any of it for granted though. Every other team is going all out to take down the Chiefs.
Provided Veach keeps up his stellar drafting, the roads ahead will be easier exactly because of this. So many teams have borrowed off future cap dollars to be more competitive now that they're stuck in a perpetual cycle of kicking the can down the road and eventually there's just not going to be room to maneuver without losing key cogs. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Sassy Squatch:
Provided Veach keeps up his stellar drafting, the roads ahead will be easier exactly because of this. So many teams have borrowed off future cap dollars to be more competitive now that they're stuck in a perpetual cycle of kicking the can down the road and eventually there's just not going to be room to maneuver without losing key cogs.
Not just talking about that. Look at the Chargers hiring Jim Harbaugh. Other teams spending way more money on facilities and support staff. Andy and his whole staff are apparently way underpaid compared to a bunch of other teams around the league. And now for the roster elements…
Every year there are new talented QB’s on cheap rookie deals with loaded rosters around them. It’s gonna be a never-ending battle to fight against them. Purdy is still cheap for awhile. CJ Stroud is cheap for a long time. And so forth. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Eh - that's not true.
People don't give Brady enough credit for what he did from about 2007 through 2017. He was undeniably the best QB in the NFL over that 10 year span. Did he have the best season every year? No - but neither has Mahomes.
Guys like Rodgers or Brees occasionally having better years than Brady didn't make them better QBs. He was absolutely the best at his position for a decade and deserves all the credit he gets for that.
It absolutely is true.
There were only a couple of years in his career that Brady was the best QB in the league when either Manning or Rodgers weren't and the stats bear this out. I'm not sure there is a more overrated athlete whose mythology is built up solely on team success who ever lived than Tom Brady. It's like if people went around saying Bill Russell was the GOAT because he had the good fortune of being the best player on the 1960s Celtics. [Reply]