Don't forget an "All Hope is Lost" moment with Rey before Green Lightsaber Luke Skywalker the White returns to kick wholesale ass.

It'll be fun to watch, but I doubt I'll want to re-watch it once it's over.
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Speaking of, just where is Luke's green lightsaber, anyway? Did Rey lift that along with the Journals of the Whills?
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There are so many "holes" and just plain stupid shit in the previous SW movies, including (and maybe especially) the OT.
But...Leia floated in space...THE WHOLE THING IS SHIT NOW
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Exactly.

How did the Jedi identify what kids to train, anyway? Did they just sense they were special or did the kids first show some "talent?"
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what?
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yeah, he did ET and many fun blockbuster movies but Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's list are going to be around forever. That's a legacy most directors will never achieve.
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30% of this movie could have been left on the cutting room floor and not impacted the film at all.

I appreciate that people like fluff and filler, but I like tightly written well paced films.

Tell me, other than being pretty, what good qualities did this film have?

Interesting characters? Nope. Main character has no motivation, Finn's story was time filler and his character arc was exactly the same as TFA (him overcoming his cowardice), Luke is a bitch, Snoke can alter space/time, and apparently force ghosts can use the force to devastating effect.

Why the **** aren't dead Jedi helping out? Apparently they're far stronger in death than they are in life. Maybe Luke will come back and be a bad ass since he was a ridiculously weak Jedi compared to Snoke.... Luke dies projecting an image. Snoke alters time/space with no effect.. but hey, his freakish power is undermined by his obscene stupidity and looney tunes style death. Nice writing. Let's not go with the OBVIOUS set up here. Let's just make them both die in really stupid ways and then praise how it subverted expectations!

Christ, this is a 'turn off your brain' movie moreso than transformers or any Star Wars film in history.

And Star wars films aren't exactly a 'thinking man' franchise. Dumbing down stuff that doesn't have a history of being clever is pretty bad, but it works as a marketing strategy.

Sometimes.

Christ, the prequels were smarter than this. Poorly paced and boring, but far more ambitious. This movie isn't horrible. It's almost on par with mediocre Marvel superhero movies. Like Avengers 2. I'm glad some people liked it. Some people liked the Phantom Menace.
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Main characters are Rey and Ren. They seemed pretty motivated to me.

I didn't care for Finn's story as much as the rest of the movie, but I don't, and have never seen him as a coward. He had the stones to defy FO orders to fire the town, the stones to break Poe out in order to escape the FO, the stones to try to rescue Rey as she's being taken by Ren and then the stones to infiltrate star killer base (again to rescue Rey). Not much cowardice there IMO. In TLJ, his knee-jerk reaction to leave was more-so about preventing Rey from returning to what he believed was a sinking ship. Then he returns to the fight to try to infiltrate the snoke ship and ultimately tries a suicide run to disable the battering ram. I've found him as a character that, while not obviously heroic, time after time finds courage to try to help his new-found friends.

I don't agree. I found Luke's evolution entirely plausible. The Jedi order, slaughtered... Luke's new Jedi school, slaughtered. Is it all that surprising that he comes to the conclusion that the Jedi way isn't working... and decides to seclude himself for research and reflection? I really liked Luke and found him to be the least "bitchy" version of Luke we've seen and his confrontation with Ren at the end of TLJ is far more in-line with actual Jedi teachings than the Jedi of the clone wars, etc. Which seems to be in-line with what he's come to believe after all of these years.

I'm not sure why so many find the new force powers introduced in TLJ so sacrilege to Star Wars. Before ESB we didn't know the force could be used to move physical objects, before Return, we didn't know the force could be used to shoot bolts of lighting from your fingertips, before the prequals, we didn't know the force could be used catch the aforementioned lightning in your hand, or used to jump incredible distances, or bring back the dead (as palpatine claims the Jedi won't teach). Why then is a force version of face-time so out of the question? And fwiw, Johnson ran all of this past George Lucas's guy at Lucasfilm, that is the keeper of this kind of stuff, and was given an unequivocal green light, so if he is cool with it, why shouldn't we be?

I don't claim to know the physical toll it takes to do either of these force actions. Apparently it is more strenuous to do the projection than the force face-time? Dunno. Or maybe Snoke WAS more powerful than Luke, or maybe Luke just didn't keep up with his cardio in his exhile... don't really know. But do we know enough to come to a conclusion that it isn't realistic in the SW universe?

I think his freakish power was ultimately undermined by his over confidence. He didn't think it was possible for Ren to deceive him in this way and never saw it coming. I disagree that they died in stupid ways. I was shocked when Snoke bought it. Thought it was totally freakin' unexpected and awesome. And I loved how Luke went out. Completely heroic, completely awesome and completely realistic (as it would have been completely unrealistic if, after years of exile, he comes out and starts somersaulting all over the place and mopping the floor with Ren).

Of course, it SHOULD go without saying, that all of this is just my opinion.
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Luke was weak compared to Snoke?

Holy shit.

Snoke wouldn't come out of the shadows to face him. Snoke only SEEMS powerful because Ren and Rey are so inexpertly weak.
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Speaking of Spielberg and Schindler's List, how many of you know that Schidler's List was actually a student film... kinda sorta.

http://www.toptenz.net/schindlers-li...udent-film.php
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Kept up with cardio? :-)
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???
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:-) thanks, i liked that bit too.
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So I saw this 3 weeks or so ago and it has taken me this long to get through the thread.

I don't at all intend to fight or convince anybody that they are an idiot. However, I enjoy the discussion and discourse here and there are a lot of good points made here. When I watched TFA, I was enamored with seeing it all on screen again, but the thread here helped tighten my view of it. And I very much appreciate it. As such, I feel compelled to share my views on it here.

I enjoyed it very much. Yes it deviated from the norm, but it worked for me. The points it tried to make really resonated with me. (maybe it's because grain prices are in the shitter and there isn't a lot of room for gain, no matter your intention) I appreciate it for making the bold choices. It was far from perfect but did an awful lot well. An awful lot. Whereas all TFA did was successfully bring characters and styles back to the big screen.

The major ideas in the movie are strong throughout. Shit happens. Things aren't as you'd expect.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on the major ideas bantered about here.

Canto Bight/DJ
This is what EVERYBODY hated but I thought resonated. Yeah, the bit with freeing the animals was over the top, but its Star Wars. You know what REALLY sucks about Star Wars? The heros always get just what they need just in the knick of time. Never fails. It's an overused trope. Well, you know what? Shit happens. Things aren't as you expect. I watched Clone Wars at some point and that shit is EVERY FUCKING EPISODE. It was a nice change.

Also it very successfully added depth to the story by not having a clear good guy and bad guy. Yeah, the people at the casino were war profiteers, but they're just making a living, off both sides. If they weren't selling to the FO they wouldn't be selling to the resistance either. And DJ raised some good points with pointless wars and all. Added some realism to the whole strictly hero and evil villain business, as many good productions do.

It was beautifully shot, advanced the narrative, and developed the characters.

Rey Training
She was super sensitive to the force. Jedi Training is how to become a monk. Not how to fight. Didn't bug me.

The shooting was beautiful the humor resonated, especially the caretakers hating Rey :-). Hamill's acting was exquisite. Like the best I've seen from him. Ever. The moments hit hard. I was thinking when she went into the hole, this is going to be LAME. And it managed to do what it needed to do-provide her with no answers beautifully.

Force Stuff
Meh. Whatever. There is no instruction manual on the force. New shit happens in every iteration essentially. Very little continuity across installments. Snokes stuff. Whatever. That's not much of a reach. Yoda. Meh. Also not much of a reach. And it was fucking hilarious. Force Projection. It was so fucking cool and well done that it didn't even register on the WTF scale. Leia? Shut the fuck up. All this space battle business and THAT is what you couldn't get over? And nobody is saying shit about the same thing happening to Snoke's ship and a ton of people made it out of that.

Luke
Yeah. You know what? Shit happens. Things are like you expect. A council of the most powerful Jedis in the world got their ass handed to them by Palpatine. And you're pissed off that one fucking guy with a week of Jedi Training who has a history of going off half cocked couldn't restore the Jedi order to glory? Get the fuck out of here. Where he ended up made perfect sense in my mind. Again, maybe I'm jaded at the moment and it resonated, but fuck man, his story hit hard.

His death made a shitload more sense than him going down guns blazing. Especially after studying the Jedi scrolls and reflecting on the true Jedi way. That was beautiful storytelling IMO. It would have taken me out of it if he saddled up and rode into battle. Did he need to die? Eh. Maybe not. But Disney can't keep rolling out the old stars and keep their new stars viable. If he doesn't go then it will be difficult for Rey to find her own way. It fit IMO.

Snoke
Things aren't like you expect. And it can get you cut in half. Fits the narrative IMO. To be honest, I wasn't really that into him as a character. ANOTHER big bad pulling the strings of an enforcer type? Blech. I for one am glad he's gone and Kylo is the big bad. It will be interesting to see where they go with him. Rather than knowing where they're going to go with him and the "new" emperor.

Slow Chase
Didn't really bother me as I was watching it. Bad tactical plan in hindsight, but the way they explained it during the movie was sufficient. It's not like it is unprecedented in Star Wars to have the villain try to execute slow torturous deaths of their opponents.

Hondo
Didn't like it as it was happening, but her actions made sense. And by God she was right. As soon as Poe found out what was going on, he fucking leaked it and got fuckers killed.

The kamikaze thing is a pretty good sized hole. It makes sense in the movie. Took time to get rolling and they weren't focused on her because she was not a perceived threat. But a ship could easily get out of sensor range and plot a course through a static ship. Maybe you could back out of it through the economics of procuring a hyperdrive with the requisite power to move a massive enough ship through hyperspace. But yeah. Not really feasible.

Didn't really have a problem with it during the movie and my god it was cinematically beautiful.

Finn Sacrificing Himself
The Finn line I don't hate as much as everyone else. The Phasma stuff fell flat for me. But I thought his role in the film was fine. As far as Rose saving him, it hit home with what the movie was trying to get at. And it makes some sense. Virtually everybody in the movie was fighting because they were wronged. It was pretty powerful to push the idea of fighting for love instead of hate.

Along those lines, the fight on the salt planet was some of the best film making I've seen ever. However, the only time I really thought, "naaaaaah" was when the walkers opened fire on those slow ass crafts and didn't hit shit. Overall though, one of the best sequences Star Wars has put out.

Overall, I really REALLY enjoyed this movie and it is truly a shame Johnson isn't going to get rewarded for taking risks and making a great movie.
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If anything thus really really bugged me, because the journey to be great shouldn't be attained with the simplicity that Rey achieved it.

The age old term " if it was easy everyone be doing it"

Rey smashed the idea that to be excellent in a craft you have to work hard and earn it. The mystique and regard of being a Jedi is lost on the shortcut that Rian Johnson created with Rey's character arc.

I had to interject on this statement, because as a Martial Artists mind over matter is a major tenet. It's a slap in the face to the audience by conveying that anyone who has the capability will be great without effort.
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