Because of all the interest in this thread, I've place all of the video content of Patrick Mahomes II's college career, and draft day goodness into a single post that can be found here. Enjoy! [Reply]
Originally Posted by Marcellus:
I think there would be some personnel changes necessary for Lamar to be successful as well. OL has to be great at run blocking, you need a good TE as well.
Great point. Lamar without Andrews (or even Likely who is a fantastic rookie) is a huge difference. [Reply]
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
I don't know man. I see both sides of it.
He technically could take any team to the playoffs because no team is going to force him into a traditional offense. The two ideas aren't separable to me.
It's like saying, "Yeah 'x' Qb can take this team to the playoffs if they change their HC/OC, build up the RB stable, change offensive schemes and beef up the OL and team defense".
Well....any QB would be better if they built the team AROUND him.
Meanwhile, there's actual QB's in this league that don't require that prerequisite, that can legitimately play in any system and still be a force multiplier.
And if you can't be that, then you don't belong in the conversation with those other QB's. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
Ok, but that's a helluva caveat to add to, "can take any team to the playoffs".
That's more like, "can take any team who shit cans their OC and installs a completely different system and offensive talent to the playoffs"
It's a disqualifier to the question, is what it is. Because if they have to do that, they're not the same team.
We're talking about a high school offense here. Not saying they'd need to reinvent the wheel.
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Anybody that acquires him (assuming the Ravens expose him) is going to automatically retool their offensive coaching staff to accommodate him. It's a given.
I don't think he would excel in a traditional offense but that's almost not worth discussing because nobody is going to put him in that kind of offense to start with.
Thank you. It's a pretty simple concept.
If we swapped Allen for Mahomes we'd definitely start running more designed QB runs. If the Bucs swapped Brady for Mahomes they'd certainly start running some RPOs. [Reply]
Originally Posted by ThaVirus:
We're talking about a high school offense here. Not saying they'd need to reinvent the wheel.
You're not giving the Ravens or Jackson enough credit if that's what you think.
Originally Posted by ThaVirus:
Thank you. It's a pretty simple concept.
If you have to change the team, then "take any team" does not apply. Because it's clearly not "any team", it's a team tailored to Jackson.
That should be a simple concept.
Mahomes and Allen don't require a scheme specifically for them. They can run any scheme. QB designed runs etc are wrinkles that the scheme adds to take advantage of their ability, but they aren't DEPENDENT on a specific scheme for them to have success.
Lamar Jackson isn't coming into KC and hitting his 3rd read like Mahomes does.
He's not launching 50 yard deep balls in perfect place like Allen does.
Those two guys can legit play in any system, they don't need specific offenses to have success, like Lamar does. Those guys can ACTUALLY take any team to the playoffs. Lamar does not belong in that conversation.
The statement was, "Take any team to the playoffs" not "Take any team to the playoffs with enough tweaks, scheme and roster turnover". [Reply]
Well, it’s November, which means the @Chiefs should feel PRETTY good about their chances going forward. With Patrick Mahomes under center, KC has won 23 straight games in the months of November and December. Since 1950 no other QB won more than 17 straight. pic.twitter.com/ZWaAUkvYeI
Mahomes and Allen could walk into Detroit and instantly improve their passing game with out changing their scheme. They don't have to rewrite the playbook for those guys. They can come in and run Detroit's scheme.
Can Lamar Jackson walk into Detroit and improve their passing game w/o significantly altering their scheme?
No? Ok. Then he doesn't belong in that same conversation. There's a clear difference there.
There's a few guys who can legit turn any team into a contender without requiring a complete fundamental shift in offense. Then there's guys like Lamar who, yeah, if you change everything for him, can have success. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
Mahomes and Allen could walk into Detroit and instantly improve their passing game with out changing their scheme. They don't have to rewrite the playbook for those guys. They can come in and run Detroit's scheme.
Can Lamar Jackson walk into Detroit and improve their passing game w/o significantly altering their scheme?
No? Ok. Then he doesn't belong in that same conversation. There's a clear difference there.
There's a few guys who can legit turn any team into a contender without requiring a complete fundamental shift in offense. Then there's guys like Lamar who, yeah, if you change everything for him, can have success.
Feel the same. if you have to change the offense, then probably you have to change the coaches/players on some level, and at that point it's not really the same team at all. The question is better if you have to leave everything as it is, and then can that QB still take them to the playoffs or the SB. Lamar would have trouble doing it in a lot more situations than Mahomes or Allen. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
The question is better if you have to leave everything as it is, and then can that QB still take them to the playoffs or the SB. Lamar would have trouble doing it in a lot more situations than Mahomes or Allen.
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
The statement was, "Take any team to the playoffs" not "Take any team to the playoffs with enough tweaks, scheme and roster turnover".
You're being disingenuous. I never said anything about roster turnover and I certainly never implied Jackson was on Allen or Mahomes' level. In fact, I explicitly mentioned that Allen and Mahomes could go anywhere with no caveats and see instant success , while being sure to note that Jackson would need a change in scheme to realize his full potential. At this point I'm wondering if you even read my initial post in the thread.
You wouldn't even need a massive scheme change for a lot of teams. Just throw in some more options here and there, plus Lamar scrambling on a fair amount of pass plays is going to result in more good than bad.
Originally Posted by ThaVirus:
You're being disingenuous. I never said anything about roster turnover
Roster turnover would be part of the equation, whether you stated it or not.
The point of the Mahomes/Allen comparisons is that there really are a few QB's in the league that can do what you described. Lamar ain't one of them.
If you have to change the team and the scheme, then it really isn't "any" team, as in, the current state in which it's constructed.
Megatron laid it out well.
Without changing what the Lions do, can Lamar come in and lead a dynamic passing attack there? No. The answer is no. That specific Lions team, as it is presently constructed no. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
Roster turnover would be part of the equation, whether you stated it or not.
The point of the Mahomes/Allen comparisons is that there really are a few QB's in the league that can do what you described. Lamar ain't one of them.
If you have to change the team and the scheme, then it really isn't "any" team, as in, the current state in which it's constructed.
Megatron laid it out well.
Without changing what the Lions do, can Lamar come in and lead a dynamic passing attack there? No. The answer is no. That specific Lions team, as it is presently constructed no.
