Because of all the interest in this thread, I've place all of the video content of Patrick Mahomes II's college career, and draft day goodness into a single post that can be found here. Enjoy! [Reply]
Originally Posted by MahomesMagic:
Yes, and I was told that I was too high on Trey Lance too.
There is no right or wrong answer on either Allen or Herbert. Herbert had an incredible rookie year. Probably easier to make a case for him.
But there were issues on his tape too, watch the New England game.
Allen put out the following input in his previous 2 years:
Passer Rating of 67 and 85.
Last year was an incredible breakout year but there is a lot to worry about on his tape as well.
Specifically, watch the LAR game 1st half and 2nd half. 1st half mainly zone, 2nd half mainly man (except for long 3rd downs where LAR kept going back to zone).
Watch the Arizona game where they went back and forth from man to zone and in almost all of the man defense moments Allen threw it to the other team 4 or 5 times.
Watch the last 2 playoff games where Allen struggled against simple man from Baltimore and then struggles against man or changes in pre-snap looks from KC.
Allen, when I watch him, is a talented but more scheme dependent QB than a Kyler Murray. I would rather have the guy who has less needs in that area.
Selling Allen and Herbert stock before this year starts.
I don't care about someone who pushes childish hyperbole like yourself. I can defend my opinions without crying like a baby.
Yeah im gonna go ahead and say that i've seen your takes and don't give a damn what you think about their "tape".
Beating your chest on Trey Lance who hasn't played a snap?
Saying shit like Allen is more scheme dependent than Murray is fucking hilarious. Allen IS there scheme. Meanwhile, Murray plays in one of the simplest schemes in the league.
Baltimore and KC both run game plan specific schemes and are widely known amongst pundits for having some of the most unique blitz packages in the league.
You calling them "Simple man" is quite evident on how little you know. Those are the defenses, including NE, that young QB's will find most challenging as they're constantly giving different looks in the secondary. [Reply]
Originally Posted by ThaVirus:
Clearly there would come a point in which a guy would be too short to play QB effectively, but when one of the best pocket passers of all time in Drew Brees is only 6' it makes me wonder where that issue truly presents itself.
I think Rodgers is about 6'1". Russell Wilson is 5'11".
Kyler at 5'10" is not far off.
Kyler has known issues seeing over the pocket. He almost never takes snaps from center and in a crowded pocket he has a known habit of rolling out to create artificial throwing lanes.
Also, his offense is widely criticized for being limited. Which begs the question, is the offense limited because of coaching, or because of the QB's current capacity? [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
Yeah im gonna go ahead and say that i've seen your takes and don't give a damn what you think about their "tape".
Beating your chest on Trey Lance who hasn't played a snap?
Saying shit like Allen is more scheme dependent than Murray is ****ing hilarious. Allen IS there scheme. Meanwhile, Murray plays in one of the simplest schemes in the league.
Baltimore and KC both run game plan specific schemes and are widely known amongst pundits for having some of the most unique blitz packages in the league.
You calling them "Simple man" is quite evident on how little you know. Those are the defenses, including NE, that young QB's will find most challenging as they're constantly giving different looks in the secondary.
Baltimore's playoff defensive scheme against Buffalo was very simple. Basic man coverage, almost no crazy looks or blitzes.
And Allen choked .
KC did mix up looks, showing one thing, than another. But you still don't seem to understand why it worked (it wasn't a surprise, we showed the same thing in the regular season). [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
Kyler has known issues seeing over the pocket. He almost never takes snaps from center and in a crowded pocket he has a known habit of rolling out to create artificial throwing lanes.
Also, his offense is widely criticized for being limited. Which begs the question, is the offense limited because of coaching, or because of the QB's current capacity?
Originally Posted by MahomesMagic:
Baltimore's playoff defensive scheme against Buffalo was very simple. Basic man coverage, almost no crazy looks or blitzes.
Originally Posted by MahomesMagic:
Snaps from center!!
Another 1980's dream.
Formations and player sets matter. You keep lining up in shotgun spread formations and NFL defenses, especially game-plan specific D's will shut you down.
Getting under center allows things such as Bootlegs, which would be killer for Murray. It also forces the defenses to play up, makes the play action pass more effective. It also allows for more misdirection when the ball as snapped as the defenders can't easily locate the ball. Even fucking Lamar Jackson takes snaps from center. It revitalized Mayfield's career as he transitioned into a Bootleg Qb last season. But yes, keep telling us how snapping from under center is archaic :-). Snapping from center has been a core component in almost every legit offense in the league you idiot.
I don't mind that you keep showing your ignorance. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
More to the point, how often is it that we see "Gigantor!" QBs have success? Tall QBs get positive checkmarks from Mel Kipers, but it's never been demonstrated by any player that being NBA-tall is super helpful to the position.
There's a sweet spot of successful QBs mostly falling in the 6'2-6'4 range. A guy like Big Ben is 6'5. I don't think we've seen any QBs be taller than 6'5 and have success in the league.
Brock Osweiler was "intriguing" because he was 6'7 when he came out of college. Surely it gives you an advantage of some sort, right?
No, I'm not saying extreme height is a hindrance, but it could be if you're really tall and playing QB, perhaps that height tends to teach you not to worry about throwing lanes and all that because they don't matter to you in high school in college.
The thinking was that you want a tall QB because he was going to take his drop and then deliver from the pocket. This was the 1980s West Coast template.
This template was also the reason Mahomes was not considered generational and Trevor Lawrence was.
Of course Lawrence was running a college spread offense but the dinosaurs didn't care about that detail because he is so Tall! How dreamy. [Reply]
Originally Posted by MahomesMagic:
The thinking was that you want a tall QB because he was going to take his drop and then deliver from the pocket. This was the 1980s West Coast template.
This template was also the reason Mahomes was not considered generational and Trevor Lawrence was.
Of course Lawrence was running a college spread offense but the dinosaurs didn't care about that detail because he is so Tall! How dreamy.
You're so dumb. We're not talking about Drew Bledsoe and Peyton Manning. Allen ran for 421 Yards last season @ 6-5" 247.
Mahomes ran for 308 yards @ 6-3" 240
Herbert ran for 234 @ 6-6" 240
1980's west coast template? Montana was 6-2" 205lbs. West coast isn't about standing in the pocket and striking downfield, it's about quick slants, getting the ball out quickly and a quick rhythmic passing game with small, light linemen.
Get out of here you have no idea what you're talking about. You can't even get something as simple as that right and we're suppose to trust your evaluations of "tape". Holy shit. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
You're so dumb. We're not talking about Drew Bledsoe and Peyton Manning. Allen ran for 421 Yards last season @ 6-5" 247.
Mahomes ran for 308 yards @ 6-3" 240
Herbert ran for 234 @ 6-6" 240
1980's west coast template? Montana was 6-2" 205lbs. West coast isn't about standing in the pocket and striking downfield, it's about quick slants, getting the ball out quickly and a quick rhythmic passing game with small, light linemen.
Get out of here you have no idea what you're talking about. You can't even get something as simple as that right and we're suppose to trust your evaluations of "tape". Holy shit.
Yes, great point on Montana. But the scouts that came after him still wanted the tall guy.
Keep regurgitating Kiper bs and I'll enjoy taking from suckers like you in fantasy and gambling.
And with that I'm out until Mahomes discussions come back. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
No one listens to kiper, you watch too much T.V.
I just showed you a list of big Qb's who can run in today's NFL, including our own Mahomes, who, yes, is a ****ing big dude @ 6-3" 240lbs.
We're not discussing 80's-90's Robot QB's. Some of today's best QB's are big dudes that move really well.
Again, you just don't know what you're talking about.
Mahomes became a "big guy" once he succeeded. Before that the emphasis was on stupid crap like Texas Tech Air Raid and him supposedly not being able to play in structure.
As for size, I am not against tall or big QB's.
If everything else is the same, sure give me the bigger player.
But modern NFL offense I take a guy that runs a 4.3 over a few inches in height because of the supposed great vision height provides.
Height is a trait, just not as important as overall athleticism, throwing with anticipation, spatial awareness, off-platform throws.
Now the one thing I can say that SNR touched on was just being 6'6'' or 6'7'' doesn't seem to be the sweet spot or ideal. I think it is because it is harder to control those longer levers. There is more of a clumsiness to some of the super tall players vs the guys that are 6'2'' or 6'3''.
Favre, Rodgers, Mahomes are the top off-platform throwers of the last few decades and none were 6'4''. [Reply]
Originally Posted by ThaVirus:
He has improved his accuracy and processing, but they are still his most glaring weaknesses.
I mean, assuming you guys are correct: he's 6'5" 240, literally perfect size for a QB, strongest arm in the league, runs a 4.6, accurate, and makes quick, efficient reads.. So why isn't this dude better than Mahomes then? He would be the best QB ever if what you guys are saying is true.
Mahomes is a unicorn. He has Favre, Marino, Elway level of raw talent with a Manning or Brady level of processing ability. QBs like him come along very rarely if ever. To compare anyone to him would be like comparing someone to Jordan. [Reply]
