Originally Posted by srvy:
As for mopping, in my opinion, its just another Texas cheat especially on beef. Brisket doesn't need anything but salt and pepper.
I don't mop brisket (typically) because the juice isn't worth the squeeze. I don't feel like messing w/ my temps by opening the lid.
But for a pork shoulder I'll mop because that stall's so long that it's gonna be what it's gonna be and its so unpredictable that I just plan to be done 6 hours before serving anyway so a few temperature drops aren't a big deal. And frankly, pork shoulders are just a little bland if you don't give 'em a little help.
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I use cayenne instead of crushed red so I can spritz it, but otherwise I use the same thing. If I have a little more time I'll simmer it in a small sauce pot to meld all those flavors and then strain it. When I do that I'll throw a little honey in there or a little Tiger Sauce just to make the flavor a little more complex. Both help create a nicer bark, IMO.
A mop can make the rub 'bleed' a little bit whereas a good spritz gets better distribution and keeps your rub completely intact.
Yeah I had a spritzer I broke and have not thought to replace so it's mopping for me for currently. Gonna hop on Amazon now and fix that. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And molasses is subtle?
Any sauce is essentially used to cover for mediocre meat. Barbecue as an 'art form' is designed to cover for mediocre meat. Pork shoulders and briskets are tough, ass cuts of the animal and they're the things most commonly smoked.
Hell, dry rubs and smoke are designed to avoid 'letting the meat do the work'. The only thing where the meat truly does the heavy lifting is steaks (so anyone that tells you they grill a great steak is uniformly full of shit - it's steak; ain't anything to it).
My preference is strongly in favor of Memphis style barbecue so I typically avoid sauces outright. That said, when I use them, I typically prefer a vinegar based sauce. The molasses heavy stuff is just going to overpower anything whereas vinegar bases are similar to salt in that they will pull out additional flavors as opposed to just making them.
I really don't sauce much and keep my rubs basic, but I think there's a stark difference to something like molasses and Vinegar based sauce and hot sauce. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And molasses is subtle?
Any sauce is essentially used to cover for mediocre meat. Barbecue as an 'art form' is designed to cover for mediocre meat. Pork shoulders and briskets are tough, ass cuts of the animal and they're the things most commonly smoked.
Hell, dry rubs and smoke are designed to avoid 'letting the meat do the work'. The only thing where the meat truly does the heavy lifting is steaks (so anyone that tells you they grill a great steak is uniformly full of shit - it's steak; ain't anything to it).
My preference is strongly in favor of Memphis style barbecue so I typically avoid sauces outright. That said, when I use them, I typically prefer a vinegar based sauce. The molasses heavy stuff is just going to overpower anything whereas vinegar bases are similar to salt in that they will pull out additional flavors as opposed to just making them.
There is a qualitative difference between caramelizing sugars mixing with meat fats, and vinegar breaking down proteins and leaving softer meat with vinegar flavoring. . . [Reply]
Originally Posted by Baby Lee:
There is a qualitative difference between caramelizing sugars mixing with meat fats, and vinegar breaking down proteins and leaving softer meat with vinegar flavoring. . .
But they're not mutually exclusive.
Few vinegar based sauces don't also have brown sugar or tomatoes in them to add some level of sugar. Peppers and onions also bring sugars to the mix.
My objection is simply to the idea that Vinegar is used as a masking agent - it isn't. At least it isn't more than molasses is. If you push either ingredient to it's purest, most extreme form - they'll run roughshod over most any meat. But few ever do that. They're used in concert with other complementary flavors. And sauces that DON'T utilize vinegar at least in some small amount end up too fruity in their own right; vinegar helps bring a complementary tartness/acidity to the party. [Reply]
You all call it vinegar base when it's an ingredient. I add vinegar, red wine, balsamic, or ACV to taste. I don't build a sauce around vinegar. and I do not baste with it either.
Originally Posted by KCUnited:
Pickles as a common staple alone supports vinegar as an enhancement to bbq
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
But they're not mutually exclusive.
Few vinegar based sauces don't also have brown sugar or tomatoes in them to add some level of sugar. Peppers and onions also bring sugars to the mix.
My objection is simply to the idea that Vinegar is used as a masking agent - it isn't. At least it isn't more than molasses is. If you push either ingredient to it's purest, most extreme form - they'll run roughshod over most any meat. But few ever do that. They're used in concert with other complementary flavors. And sauces that DON'T utilize vinegar at least in some small amount end up too fruity in their own right; vinegar helps bring a complementary tartness/acidity to the party.
Sorry, I was reading the conversation very differently.
It seemed like it started off with not liking 'hot sauce' as a BBQ sauce because it's mostly just vinegar, and it seemed like you countered with 'if you don't like vinegar, you can't like molasses, . . . or any spices or sauces, because they're ALL 'assisting weak meat.'
Sure everything has a balance. But my point was simply - if you're 'out of balance,' out of balance vinegary is very different from out of balance sugary. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Baby Lee:
Sorry, I was reading the conversation very differently.
It seemed like it started off with not liking 'hot sauce' as a BBQ sauce because it's mostly just vinegar, and it seemed like you countered with 'if you don't like vinegar, you can't like molasses, . . . or any spices or sauces, because they're ALL 'assisting weak meat.'
Sure everything has a balance. But my point was simply - if you're 'out of balance,' out of balance vinegary is very different from out of balance sugary.
Yeah, I can see your reading. It was a little meandery. I figured from Busby's jumping off of Cooper's discussion regarding sauces we were debating the merits of the respective bases.
Though given my druthers, I'd still take 'out of balance' vinegary over out of balance sugary. Perhaps not as a baste or marinade for texture purposes (mushy meat blows) but if I've gotta put straight white vinegar or straight white sugar on my ribs, I'm going with the vinegar.
Acid as a whole can complement meat (as the pickles example made nicely; some places also serve the vinegar onions with their barbecue) better than sugar.
If I gotta miss one direction, it would be towards the vinegar. [Reply]
Originally Posted by KCUnited:
Pickles as a common staple alone supports vinegar as an enhancement to bbq
Put me on blast, whatever. Fuck pickles. I hate pickles. Fuck Vinegar. Fuck Mustard. Fuck all that shit. It just doesn't do it for me. At all.
That being said, I won't throw a fit if vinegar and mustard are used appropriately. I can usually pick it up if it is used, but it won't ruin Q, necessarily. But I've had enough "Southern" BBQ (most of it in fact) that just straight horribad that it has scarred me. I'm pretty damned sensitive to it.
Originally Posted by Buehler445:
Put me on blast, whatever. Fuck pickles. I hate pickles. Fuck Vinegar. Fuck Mustard. Fuck all that shit. It just doesn't do it for me. At all.
That being said, I won't throw a fit if vinegar and mustard are used appropriately. I can usually pick it up if it is used, but it won't ruin Q, necessarily. But I've had enough "Southern" BBQ (most of it in fact) that just straight horribad that it has scarred me. I'm pretty damned sensitive to it.
Originally Posted by Buehler445:
Put me on blast, whatever. Fuck pickles. I hate pickles. Fuck Vinegar. Fuck Mustard. Fuck all that shit. It just doesn't do it for me. At all.
That being said, I won't throw a fit if vinegar and mustard are used appropriately. I can usually pick it up if it is used, but it won't ruin Q, necessarily. But I've had enough "Southern" BBQ (most of it in fact) that just straight horribad that it has scarred me. I'm pretty damned sensitive to it.
Flame Away.
I begrudge no one for a toddler's palette.
Just as long as he acknowledges it.
My kids like ketchup and KC masterpiece on their chicken nuggets as well, man. It's okay - you're in a safe space here. With my children. And their dino-nuggets.
Originally Posted by Buehler445:
Put me on blast, whatever. Fuck pickles. I hate pickles. Fuck Vinegar. Fuck Mustard. Fuck all that shit. It just doesn't do it for me. At all.
That being said, I won't throw a fit if vinegar and mustard are used appropriately. I can usually pick it up if it is used, but it won't ruin Q, necessarily. But I've had enough "Southern" BBQ (most of it in fact) that just straight horribad that it has scarred me. I'm pretty damned sensitive to it.
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
My objection is simply to the idea that Vinegar is used as a masking agent - it isn't.
It generally is. I think Carolina generally is Vinegar based because they can't barbecue for shit, so they try to go for the tangy profile. I really can't take anyone that prefers the shit seriously. [Reply]
